And I get the concept of adding these chemicals to RO water to basically create a "target" water profile. I also get looking for the most "black" items with blue being below target and red above target. Couple of questions for anyone that knows, though:
1) I know I can get baking soda, Epsom salt, and NaCl table salt from the grocery, and gypsum and calcium chloride from HBH, but chalk? what kind of chalk? where do I find such chalk? Is it powdered already? And yes, I noticed that calculator will let me leave it out, but just in case I wanted to find it
2) I am assuming the additions are in grams per gallon.... correct?
3) I see mash and boil amounts for each - so I could add directly to the mash, no problem, but then directly to the boil, too? Or sparge water? Or which? Also, I thought chalk (whatever kind) does not dissolve well in pH levels outside of the mash... but I see it listed in the boil column...
4) I've also considered using that 5.2 stuff to try to neutralize any pH problems in my mash... Thoughts on doing this IN ADDITION TO adding minerals to RO water? I am assuming if I don't want to add minerals, I need to use Spring water + 5.2 or something, but I didn't know if there was a benefit/disadvantage/lack of reason to try the 5.2 in addition to the mineral additions and RO water to minimize the impact that the water and pH has on the flavor of the beer.
Any other thoughts on water profiling, etc.?
Your thoughts, and/or any answers to my litany of questions much appreciated.
Wow...lot's of questions. I'll try to be brief.
-Chalk is Calcium Carbonate and is available at HBHQ. It raises alkalinity and lowers pH of the mash but does NOT go into solution well. It's best to keep levels of the associated minerals (bicarbonates) low (50ppm), as it may impart harsh flavors, among other things, in large quantities. (This is very high level...chapters are written on this topic alone.)
-There is debate about the best approach to treating brewing water. My approach is: I use RO water only. I treat both sparge and mash with 5.2. I add minerals to mash only, but could (should?) also add them to the boil. My fear would be over treating the final product, so I just treat the mash.
-5.2 is a buffer only and adds no mineral content. If you use RO or distilled water, you must add minerals to the mash (certain minerals serve to enhance enzyme activity, aid in gelatinization of starches, and protein digestion). Minerals are also an important source of nutrients for the yeast during fermentation, so it's also essential that they make it to the fermenter (which they will, if added to the mash and/or boil).
-5.2 is good stuff and I recommend it's use in both the sparge and mash water. This will stabilize the pH regardless of (or in spite of...) the mineral content.
It sounds like you don't have a software program to help you with recipe formulation. You should get one...they are very helpful with water treatment calculations, among many other things.
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
Since I started using RO water and adding minerals I have quit using ph 5.2. I checked my pH once with only adding the salts and it was fine. I think that if you get the salts correct your pH should be fine.
You can get chalk at Homebrew Headquarters.
I am not sure about the grams per gallon question? I do know that I use Beersmith and the Palmer spreadsheet to determine the salts that I add. I basically figure the grams needed for 6 gallons.
When I first started using RO water I treated all of my water. The last two batches I added the salts directly to the mash, only using enough for the amount of mash water which is usually about 3 gallons. Then I will add salts for 5 gallons or so to the wort before the boil starts. Chalk needs to be added to the mash in order for it to dissolve according to what I have read.
I am by no means an expert. I have only been doing this for a few batches. The results have been better for the brews that I have used the RO water, that is for sure. I basically have about 5 or 6 water recipes that I think will work for most any beer I want to brew.
I found this Water Chemistry Primer to be very helpful. It also contains recipes as far as ppm of minerals for a target.
BTW, I used the Dark Lager recipe for an American Dark Lager and it came out very tasty. It's only style fault is too much roast because I used Carafa II instead of Carafa Special II but it is a very nice beer to drink.
I looked at the spreadsheet link. You put in this the amount of mash water and the amount of boil water(preboil). After filling out the water profile and the SRM desired, it calculates the grams of salts needed. There are three numbers, All, Mash and Boil. So I think you would add the Mash amount (grams) to the mash, then add the Boil amount to the boil after you have completed sparging. When I did it I got several suggestions so I am guessing you just have to pick one and go with it. I didn't look at it hard enough to figure their "scoring".
Just thought I'd throw in a comment or two. You know, my two cents.
My thing is that while the 5.2 does not add "mineral" content, it DOES add ion through salts that DO ACT like brewers salts. It uses carbonates and phosphates as a buffering ion. If you read the tech sheet on 5.2, the opening statement is this: "5.2 is a proprietary blend of food-grade phosphate buffers (similar to brewer’s salts) that will lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water." Carbonates and phosphates are both SALTS, the same compound that is active in most of those additives that we're talking about. If you read about water additions in most homebrew books, carbonates, sulfates, phospates (salt) are anywhere between 40-60% of any chemical addition, the remaining being something like calcium chloride or sodium chloride, magnesium, iron, etc. So while you may be adding gypsum into the mash and sparge water, you are still adding ionic salts that are acting in a VERY VERY similar manner. It's overkill.
Lets say you still want to build your water, even after you add in all your additives, you can't forget that there are natural minerals within the grains and hops that create the balance. Don't forget that plants pick up all those minerals from the ground too. If you read in any homebrew book, the ppm (parts per million) of Ca, Mg, NA, etc range from 5-200ppm, 10-30ppm and 2-100ppm respectively. Now I learned in chemistry class that that is not a lot of dissolved ions in solution. So is building the water through mineral addition from a mathematical standpoint even that big of a deal? I say no. If you really want to get an even better mineral balance in your water, use an acid rest in addition to the 5.2. Acid rests are no longer traditionally used, but in an acid rest you use the grains natural minerals to help stabilize out the ph. The reason an acid rest works is because grain contains minerals, otherwise it wouldn't work.
FROM JOHN PALMER:
"Before the turn of the (last) century, when the interaction of malt and water chemistry was not well understood, brewers in Pilsen used the temperature range of 86-126°F to help the enzyme phytase acidify their mash when using only pale malts. The water in the area is so pure and devoid of minerals that the mash would not reach the proper pH range without this Acid Rest. (Just like RO water) Most other brewing areas of the world did not have this problem.
Pale lager malt is rich in phytin, an organic phosphate containing calcium and magnesium. Phytase breaks down phytin into insoluble calcium and magnesium phosphates (brewer's salts) and phytic acid. The process lowers the pH by removing the ion buffers and producing this weak acid. The acid rest is not used nowadays because it can take several hours for this enzyme to lower the mash pH to the desired 5.0 - 5.5 range. Today, through knowledge of water chemistry and appropriate mineral additions, proper mash pH ranges can be achieved from the outset without needing an acid rest. "
The last part of that statement is a perfect example of why I use 5.2 AND an acid rest to extract minerals. I only use a 20-30 minute rest and it works fine. The reason it took HOURS for people in the last century is because they didn't have 5.2. The calcium and magnesium become insoluble in one step, but then as the temperature of the mash is increased and as you boil your wort, it becomes soluble again. Remember that calcium and magnesium phosphates are SALTS, and act just like regular salt, and will dissociate in aqueous solution into positive (Ca+ and Mg+) cations and negative (POx-) anions. To illustrate this point, go to kitchen and get a pot of water. Add table salt into it at room temperature. You might be able to still see crystals of salt. Turn on your stove, elevate the temperature of the water and the crystals disappear because it has become soluble in solution. You do this during your mash process as you elevate the temperature of your mash.
Here is my point. What is the purpose of building water with minerals? It is to help stabilize flavor, help mash efficiency and generate a healthy fermentation overall. Well you are getting all of this already.
Also,the 5.2 will ONLY WORK if there is no other mineral content in the water. If the water is too hard or has too many extras then the buffers will be rendered ineffective. I have contacted Jim Jennings at 5 Star Chemicals numerous times about this same issue. I was having a hard time lowering my ph and it was because of the elevated mineral content in my water. So building water and adding 5.2 is completely pointless in my opinion. Jim had told me that too many dissolved salts in the water will stop from the ph being lowered and it only makes sense from a chemical standpoint.
And what Jim was telling me makes perfect sense. Here is a typical phosphate equilibrium function:
H3PO4 ----> H+ + H2PO−4
H2PO−4 ----> H+ + HPO2−4
HPO2−4 ----> H+ + PO3−
Phosphate buffers act in the same way, so if you add in salts which dissociate into cations and anions in aqueous solution, it will chemically react with the phosphate in one of the three ph lowering equilibrium phases.
That is just my brewing techniques. I have had no problem with yeast metabolism or anything else because of it.
I can see you took a few chemistry classes in school. I wasn't allowed in the door...
In any case, this would explain why the pH of my mash this weekend was 5.5 after adding the 5.2 and salts to match Munich water. Previously, I had no good way to measure pH, but Santa sprang for a meter! Anyway, while 5.5 is fine, I WAS wondering why it wasn't 5.2...now I know. (Is it likely that, had I NOT added 5.2, the pH would have been considerably higher?)
I need to go back through your post more carefully to better understand all you've said (I've really struggled with all the water chemistry I've read in the brewing books...), but let me try to summarize what I think is the main point: 5.2 is composed of phosphates and carbonates. The other minerals needed for enzyme activity and yeast nutrients (calcium chloride, sodium chloride, magnesium, iron, etc.) are all found in the necessary amounts within malted barley? Do I understand that correctly? Seems odd that so many all grainers use RO or distilled water then add minerals and/or 5.2 if that would be overkill. Maybe widespread misunderstanding of an undeniably confusing topic... Or maybe I don't understand what I just read...
In any case, your post has convinced me that I need to keep trying to understand water chemistry. My goal is to become as brewing literate as I can. I appreciate the help.
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
Glad I'm not the only one needing a primer on some of this stuff, and Phil - thanks for the vast info...
So what I am gathering is that I might be better off utilizing 5.2 in the mash OR trying the salts, minerals, etc. in the mash and/or sparge water, but doing them both will possibly not result in what I want.
I think this is a reason for me to try brewing the same batch 3 times....
Once with salts only from region xyz (whatever place I decide Burton, or whatever)
Once with only 5.2 in the mash and nothing else
Once with both
And then see which of the three tastes bestest. But if I read you correctly the first or second are the ones with least interference in the flavors or minerals.
Then of course I could get the Lewisville water district's water report, and compare my crap-tap-water with whatever water profile I am making and start to make bizarre chemical connections between why I don't like my beer taste now, but I might like it with the RO + something (in the event I like that better-hopefully).
Regardless, I am interested in as many views as I can get while I process Leroy, Phil, and Chris's thoughts .
Yes, unfortunately, I had to sit through one too many chemistry classes in college in order to take my MCAT. Bleh....
Anyways, to sum up the points you were asking about.
- The brewers in past century knew something about building water. They knew that the soils they grew their grains in had minerals in them. The grains themselves have tons of minerals, proteins, enzymes, carbohydrates, lipids, etc that all were either passed into the plant (grain, hops) through hydrogen bonding of water into the plant's cells or created through normal cellular metabolism in the plant. This is why they allowed the phytase to break down phytin into salts and insoluble minerals (Mg, Ca, etc) during their prolonged acid rest procedures.
- Calcium Chloride and Sodium Chloride (table salt) are added with the sole intention of the need for just the calcium (Ca++) cation and the sodium (Na+) cation. Salts dissociate in water. You never want that chloride ion in your water. Chloride in water tastes funny. So because I don't want these added salts due to their chloride content, I just extract the Ca++ and Na+ using the same acid rest procedure that the ancient brewers of old did for centuries that helped them build their water naturally.
- If you look at the typical PPM (parts per million) of how much salts are supposed to be dissolved in your mash of Ca, Mg, NA, etc, they range from 5-200ppm, 10-30ppm and 2-100ppm respectively. Ok, what does that mean. One part per million (ppm) denotes one part per 1,000,000 parts, one part in 10 to the 6th power, and a value of 1 × 10–6. This is equivalent to one drop of water diluted into 50 liters (roughly the fuel tank capacity of a compact car), or about thirty seconds out of a year. To put this in an example: If there is a party and a MILLION people show up and you and I are the only two people that like beer, would the host of that party buy a bunch of beer just to satisfy the two of us. If 100 or even 200 people liked beer at that same party, would the host buy a bunch of beer for us. Mostly likely not. We'd bring our own or we'd be drinking something else. Likewise, why buy salts at the brewstore that have tons of additional additives in them (like chlorides), when the grains (in this case you and I in this analogy) will bring the salts to the party (your mash tun). I mean if you think about how much stuff plants absorb from the ground (including nasty stuff like chemicals, pesticides and radon and argon), all the minerals we need are right there in them. That is why my momma wanted me to eat my veggies as a kid.
- If a recipe says add 1 teaspoon of gypsum into your mash, can you repeat that same perfect teaspoon EACH and EVERY time. Probably not. The difference between a level teaspoon and a heaping teaspoon is a HUGE difference in dissolved PPM.
- If you mess up even a tiny bit with measuring out those additives you are gonna have a wild, off tasting flavor to your beer. Why risk it when you got it in there already naturally. I mean after a few homebrews, a teaspoon and a tablespoon start looking really similar.
- If you use kettle flock (irish moss), don't forget what it is made of and what the major compounds in it are. It comes from plant material and I can guarantee you that it contains salts and minerals that help to coagulate those proteins.
- I apprenticed up at Franconia Brewing Co in McKinney for a good while helping them out doing pretty much anything they needed me to do there on the brewhouse floor. I learned a lot and one day I asked about their water and if they build. Gavin and Dennis up there both told me that they use an industrial CHARCOAL filter and water supply from the town's reservoirs. Not even an RO filter. Talk about dissolved mineral fluctuations. I never saw ANY additives put into their water at any time, however, they did do acid rests. So I guess if pro brewers ain't gonna worry about it much, then neither will I.
My final point: In my opinion and my experience, it isn't worth the hassle to build water using all these additives when a natural balanced process is already there. In fact, in my personal preference, the RO water, 5.2 and acid rest combination has produced the BEST HOMEBREW I HAVE EVER MADE. My beer has good head retention, good extractability and healthy fermentations. So long gone is my use of additives and water building.
Best advice is to seriously just make two sample batches of beer. One without a build and one with and just see which one you prefer. However, as even you experienced, if you build your water and try to use 5.2, get ready to have a higher pH, lower malt extraction and possibly issues with fermentation lag times.
Generally speaking, it is the first part of any multi-step mash schedule. I stopped using single infusion a long while ago. You won't be able to use it in a single step infusion. I found the single infusion method didn't produce the flavors I really wanted and didn't allow for all the enzymes to really work to their full potential and gave me lower extract from my malts.
An acid rest is conducted at the very begging of the mash. Make sure you got the 5.2 in there already. Raise your mash water to 86-126°F. I choose 104 as a nice happy medium. I hold my mash at this temperature for 20-30 minutes. Check your pH and I guarantee you you will have a nice pH in the 4.4-5.6 range which is optimum for malt extractability and enzyme efficiency.
After the acid rest, I go through a brief protein rest and then the normal sach rest (dextrin rest).
So I brewed a hefeweizen the other day. I did a acid rest at 104 for 20 minutes, 125 for 15 minutes and then 155 for 90 (added time because I used torrified wheat). Then I did my sparge at 175 and proceeded to mash out and into my boil kettle.
my pH was at 5.0 the entire mash which is AWESOME. better to be on the lower end of the pH scale then the higher end.
My fermentation kicked off nice and healthy within 12 hours as indicated by the mess my wife discovered outside of my blow off tube and bucket the next morning.
Gotcha - and I think that may very well be the direction I'll be working towards, once I can produce something more drinkable with minor alterations to process (one variable at a time...).
Thanks, this helps quite a bit, and I'll certainly be referring back to this post as I head down the road.
Question 1: I've struggled a little lately with getting good efficiency (<68%) and, while I THINK it's the milling causing it, I HAVE wondered about the water treatment. How does adding 5.2 plus mineral additions negatively impact extraction? I understand that a pH over 6 will have negative impact on several mash processes (including enzyme activity and tannin extraction). But if the pH is in line, can an over-abundance of minerals affect extraction rates?
Question 2: I've also struggled some with poor attenuation, which I generally attributed to poor yeast health. (I understand mash and fermentation temp effects on attenuation and have accounted for that.) I now use yeast nutrient late in the boil and do 1 to 2 quart starters (except for hefe's). But I still think my FG's are often a bit high. My assumption is that a lack of adequate yeast nutrition can cause poor attenuation, but the yeast nutrient (and over building the mash water) should certainly provide enough. Do you know if it's possible to provide too much nutrients in the form of water salts and yeast energizer? And if so, would this result in poor attenuation or just poor taste?
I've never been able to just relax and have a homebrew...I'm always worried my homebrew's gonna suck!
Oh...and regarding that party where they don't serve beer...I won't be present at THAT party!
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
Phil, I do understand what your saying but I must point out that what your doing with the acid rest with pale malts and RO water is just fine for light lagers and pilsners.
However, you will not have the additional sulfate content needed for to accentuate hop character in an IPA. When making dark stouts and porters, without carbonate water you can over acidify if the 5.2 happens to reach it's buffering capacity. Also, the malty styles can benefit from more carbonate water creating softer edges.
Also your method works for you because you always do the acid rest. Those who don't use a step mash will still need to have mineral salts in their water for yeast health and for proper style character.
I agree that many neutral styles could do without the salt additions.
I often just mix 50/50 carbon filtered tap water and RO water on more ballenced styles
Hop accentuated pale ales and IPA's will still want the salts. I want my sulfate levels up around 300 or so at least.
My stouts and porters, bocks and Octoberfest brews will still be adjusted toward the carbonate range.
I should point out that I use promash to calcuate the gram addtions of salts and use a two hundreths of a gram scale to measure the quantities. I treat both my mash and sparge water.
If what your doing is working for you across all the styles then have at it. I just know what I prefer and how/why the brewing centers of the world developed the styles they did. They didn't brew stouts in Bohemia for a reason.
Scott Townson
May judges be smitten with our brews and long for our nectars throughout eternity!!
1) Yes, adding 5.2 AND MINERALS will negatively effect your extraction. I explained it in the first post I did on this topic.
"Phosphate buffers act in the same way, so if you add in salts which dissociate into cations and anions in aqueous solution, it will chemically react with the phosphate in one of the three ph lowering equilibrium phases."
Your pH will only be lowered if free protons (H+ ions) can effectively dissociate from the negatively charged phosphate ions. pH is a measurement of free protons in solution; that is it. pH has nothing to do with any other element except hydrogen ion. The reason the acid rest lowers the pH and adds free protons into solution is because the phytase breaks phytin down into phytic ACID. Addition of minerals that are positively charged, like calcium (Ca+), magnesium (Mg++) and sodium (Na++) will cause the negatively charged phosphate ion in the 5.2 to react with those positively charged ions preventing the second and third proton dissociation present in the 5.2 compound. Ok, I am going into too much chemistry now.
2) Absolutely you can drown your yeast in too much nutrients. Too much of anything is bad of living organisms. I have always hit the high end of attenuation published by Wyeast Labs on all my brews using all natural methods. One time, with a stout, I used the yeast nutriets and it actually stopped my fermentation all together. Are you doing starters or doing direct pitching?
I agree with you on some points and disagree on others.
I agree with you that this is ONLY A GOOD METHOD IF YOU ARE DOING MULTI-STEP. Definately do not do this if you are using single infusion. Not gonna have good results with single infusion just using 5.2
I dont necessarily agree about the sulfate content though. I mean on a chemical level, the phosphates, sulfates and carbonates all act in a similar manner. All of them are weak bases and help to extract acid. That is why alpha acid in the hops is best extracted with those chemicals present in solution. I'd argue that they are already present in the malts and just need to be pushed (through proper temp controls and mash procedures) towards that extraction point. Don't forget too that proteins and enzymes in the mash contain a tremendous amount of sulfates in them. I have never had any issue with my IPAs and good hop character. My biggest issue with my IPA before I got it to where I loved it was me just being a dumb@ss about how to use hops in my boil. Typically, when I brew my Imperial IPA, I have to adjust my malt bill because of the hop extraction efficiency. So I have to use more malts which add more minerals into the mash anyways.
However, I still think that treating each batch of sparge and mash water with different levels of each additive is a bit excessive and can even get downright expensive.
But as you said, what gets my bells ringing might not get yours ringing. Best advice to anyone reading this is to JUST EXPERIMENT. See what you like and happy brewing.
