H2O - WATER WATER WATER WATER

[phillipzayas]

Sheesh! who knew a discussion of water would be so long and opinionated. HAHAA

[chris mewhinney]

[quote="phillipzayas"]Chris,

1) Yes, adding 5.2 AND MINERALS will negatively effect your extraction. I explained it in the first post I did on this topic.

"Phosphate buffers act in the same way, so if you add in salts which dissociate into cations and anions in aqueous solution, it will chemically react with the phosphate in one of the three ph lowering equilibrium phases."

You may have THOUGHT you explained it but, if the message doesn't get through, did communication really take place? Seriously, as I said, I struggle with chemistry, but understand now. I may well be creating these issues (albeit minor...) by over treating my water. My next beer (Octoberfest) will be with a brief acid rest, 5.5 in the sparge and mash, and no minerals. But it better come out good!

I do appreciate all the advice...whether I understand it all or not...

[phillipzayas]

Shoot man. I'll buy you the minerals if you don't like it! haha

[phillipzayas]

One other thing: Like Scott had said though, DO NOT DO THIS IN A SINGLE INFUSION. You gotta do it in a multi-step, but that is rather simple still.

[chris mewhinney]

I have a HERMS system and routinely do decoctions (lately...), so a little acid rest doesn't concern me at all!

[phillipzayas]

If you are doing a lager, I'd hold it for at least 30 minutes.

[chris mewhinney]

Will do. Thanks.

[kingsbrew]

Wow, what a discussion. I will try to be brief with these comments. First of all I would like to say I have had about three of Philip's beers, a brown ale, a pils and I think a Hefe. He offered me to come by and taste his IPA but I couldn't make it that day and his buddies drank it all up. I would just say Phil you need to enter your beers in competition and win some hardware, then you can convince those who are skeptical of your tactics. If it works for you then go for it, I cannot argue with the results I have tasted.

As for me, I will continue to add salts and skip the acid rests. I just don't want to spend the time and effort to do an acid rest. I was overwhelmed about determining salt additions until I actually got started. Now that I have enter my water styles entered into Beersmith all I have to do is to pick one of the waters I made up and it automatically adds the salts to my recipe. I have 5 or 6 water styles that I believe will suffice for just about any beer I want to brew. The salt addition is based on 6 gals of water so I will add half the salt amounts in the mash. Then add about the same amount after I complete the sparge. I may add just a little more since I usually start with about 7.75 to 8 gals of wort before boiling starts.

All I can say is that every beer I have made since I started doing this has turned out better than what I was making before. Those beers include an American IPA, Imperial IPA, witbier and an American Dark Lager. I had never gotten the hop flavoring and bitterness that I wanted until I started using RO water with the salt additions. It really is necessary for us in The Colony as our water can come from one of three sources (a local well or one of two Dallas branches) and we have no idea when it might change.

[chris mewhinney]

Some people like my beers too, Leroy... But Phil's explanation about "double dipping" with 5.2 and minerals makes sense, so I'm gonna try going without the minerals. We shall see.

[MixnMatchBrew]

What about ramping from the acid rest slowly through to the sach rest? I've wondered if a slow ramp with a rims would do any harm or good?

Just another pea brained idea rattling around in my brain again.

[chris mewhinney]

Not pea brained at all. In fact, that's similar to the regimin Eric Warner recommends in his book on brewing hefe. His is (of course) a double decoction: He mashes in at 99 for 20, then raises the temp 1 degree per minute to 117, then again to 122 and 127. Then he pulls the first decoction and raises the decoction 1 degree per minute to 158 and holds until conversion. While the protein rest part of this may no longer be necessary (due to better malt modification), it does indicate that such a routine can be effective.

I did that process only once (skipped the staggered protein rests) and it turned out quite well, as I recall. And with a HERMs system, it's easy to manage.

[kingsbrew]

Some people like my beers too, Leroy...

I didn't say I didn't like your beers. I know you are kidding. At least I think you are. If not, you'll get over it... with time.

Basically I was mentioning Phil's beers because I know his ideas are fairly radical for several people and it has raised some eyebrows. I am not convinced yet either but I can testify that his tactics are working for the beers of his that I have tasted. Therefore, I have a hard time arguing with him since I don't have the depth of chemistry knowledge.

All I know is that the RO water plus salts is working for me and I will continue to use that process because I really don't want to do a lot of rests unless I absolutely have to. Once you have a few water recipes, adding the salts is like measuring hops and adding them. It really is that easy.

My opinions and thoughts are usually based on experience because I cannot say I understand the theoretical parts. I'm a mathematical guy that can put numbers in a formula and come up with an answer.

[chris mewhinney]

Hey Leroy. No, I was not kidding...you never DID like my beers...waaaaa!!!

OK, seriously, I was intrigued by Phil's comments...so I went to a higher source...Kai, the Braukaiser. Kai is what I consider the "source". He's well learned and actually tests his theories. Take a look at this post:

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/f ... opic=898.0

It seems that some of these guys (who are far more intelligent than I...) are not keen on 5.2, but suggest that the use of RO water and mineral additions are all that's needed. They are not too fond of 5.2. Based on what I heard from Kai and the others, I will stop using 5.2 and will instead add calcium to my sparge water and other minerals to the mash (for flavor).

I'm way outa my league here too, but what Kai (and Denny, et al) says makes some sense. So...my with next beer I will add calcium to the sparge water and other minerals to the mash (for flavor), and no 5.2. Until recently, that's what I did anyway...I think I went the 5.2 route without fully understanding why.

Maybe someday I'll make a beer that even YOU will like.

Cheers!

[kingsbrew]

Interesting links. I have made a couple of observations.
- Someone said that ph5.2 keeps your pH from going over 5.8. If your pH is below that it does nothing. I am not saying this is true, just restating what I read.
I wonder if they are all adding the pH5.2 to the mash as the instructions say?

- Someone (Chris?) stated that the best place to add minerals is to the sparge water.
I have to take a little issue with that. This may be fine for most minerals but not for CaCO3 (chalk). Chalk needs to be added to the mash in order to dissolve. I think this is because of the acidity of the mash.
I have treated all of my water. I have also put minerals in the mash and then the boil. Both seem to work but I think all chalk will go in the mash from now on. It would be interesting for someone to make the same beer using different methods of adding salts and not adding salts then perform a taste test to see what

- It is interesting to think the mash is acidic even when starting with RO water. The comments I read support Philip's thoughts about the minerals from the malt will acidify the water. I don't remember them saying it required an acid rest. From what I read I am thinking this would be true without even using pH5.2.

- The question that remains is whether it is necessary to add mineral salts. As one person said, it's probably not necessary but certain salts will definitely affect flavor so it may be desirable for certain beers.

As someone mentioned, I would like to see the results of sending some distilled water with pH5.2 dissolved in it to Ward's Lab.

There is obviously a lot of different thinking about water. Here are my take aways.
- Make sure you remove all chlorine/chloramines in your water.
- Know what is in your water. Figure out what beer it is best to brew. Different brewing regions became known for certain beers because their water was most suitable for those styles.
- Or, start with RO or distilled water and adjust the mineral content to brew whatever beer you want. It seems there are many methods to do this. If you have a method that is working for you, do it. But, don't be afraid to try something to see what happens. Don't discount what someone says on theory only, try it and see what happens.

I think this statement applies here. "I know you're right, I just don't believe you yet."

Edited to add: Chris, I don't remember ever saying I didn't like your beers. I do remember tasting some good beers that you made.

[chris mewhinney]

- Someone (Chris?) stated that the best place to add minerals is to the sparge water.
I have to take a little issue with that. This may be fine for most minerals but not for CaCO3 (chalk). Chalk needs to be added to the mash in order to dissolve. I think this is because of the acidity of the mash.

I think you're referring to Kai's statement (and my summary) that calcium (or acid...my addition) can/should be added to RO sparge water to reduce the acidity and ensure no tannnin extraction due to high pH sparge water. Kai also said he does not add any minerals to sparge water because he doesn't sparge aggressively enough for pH to come into play.

While it was tough to get exact answers, what I took away from all of those responses and opinions (among other things) was this:

-Using 5.2 in brewing water likely adds a lot of sodium, which may not be good. (This needs to be validated as it was based on info I supplied from a different forum, that 5.2 consists of monosodium phosphate and disodium phosphate.
-Adding minerals to the mash is unnecessary, from the perspective of enzymatic processes. However, it also does not hurt (the limitation being the affect on pH).
-Adding minerals does affect yeast health and flavor, and you can add them to the boil, the mash, or the sparge water (again, the limitation being the affect on pH in both sparge and mash).
-The only mineral one may NEED to add to the sparge water is calcium. Adding carbonates or bicarbonates will, of course, tend to raise the pH, which one does not want to do with RO water.
-If one chooses to add calcium to the sparge, one needs to account for that wihen making additions later in the process (i.e. add proportionately less in the mash and/or boil).

One question that went unanswered is whether or not malted barley and wheat contain sufficient yeast nutrients to support a healthy fermentation on their own (i.e. without adding minerals). Kai indicated he may "test" this question, along with flavor affects of the various ions.


Leroy...I was kidding about my beers. I know some are good (dare I say VERY good). But others seem to be a little out of whack (though I realize I'm a bit harsh on myself and my beers...). But when I examine my procedures and temperatures, I conclude I'm doing everything right. So that leaves either the water or the recipe, or both. I think after all these water related discussions, I have a much better feel for what I should do and not do with respect to water treatment. Now on to recipe correction!

And I'm real big on the "trust but verify" approach, as well.

Phil, and anyone else who may be into the more technical aspects of brewing: You might want to check out Kai's web site. He does a lot of experimentation and provides some great technically oriented info. The URL is: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page