Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Use this forum to request recipes from other club members. Also post your favorite or award winning recipes here.

Moderator: Jimmy Orkin

User avatar
kingsbrew
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:30 pm
Location: The Colony

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by kingsbrew »

Hmmm. And I always thought Santa was a guy. :D
Leroy
User avatar
Bill Lawrence
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:18 am

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by Bill Lawrence »

Oh yeah, I have every beer book ever written, a couple of them are on stone tablets and not written in English. I am at work right now but when I get home (assuming I remember) I'll post the the great Jamil's formulation. I can tell you though that he is adding some Special B and I am not sure I really want to do that however, who am I to question a minor diety? Anyhow, at some point I will come up with a semi original formulation and then we can duke it out at the Bluebonnet come March (after which Richard Harris will kick both our asses).

Sounds like your Santa is being pretty tough, I suspect you have not been a good boy this past year. I got the distinct impression after speaking with her at the party that she thinks we are all crazy anyway (and I know one other brewer's wife who would not disagree).
Remember, brewers make wort, only yeast make beer
User avatar
Bill Lawrence
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:18 am

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by Bill Lawrence »

Ok so here it is:

2 lbs Pilsner malt
6.9 lbs wheat malt
3 lbs Munich malt
6oz Special B
6oz Crystal 40
2oz Carafa II

Hallertau 4% 1oz 60 minutes

WLP300

shoot for an O.G. of 1.056, the mash temperature is 152F and fermentation temperature is 62F
Remember, brewers make wort, only yeast make beer
chris mewhinney
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by chris mewhinney »

Thanks Bill. Funny thing, the recipe I have (and used years ago, last time I made a Dunkelweizen) is very similar to this one. I seriously doubt that's a coincidence...must have found it on the web some years ago. But...there ARE some differences that I think are minor...and I'd like some opinions before I brew another pot-o-swill. Here's what I've got (with variances with Jamil's noted in parentheses):

1.5 lbs Pilsner (.5 lbs less)
6.0 lbs Wheat (.9 lbs less)
3.5 lbs Munich (.5 lbs more)
No Special B (6 oz less)
.5 lb Caramunich 40 (replaces Crystal 40? 2 oz more)
.25 lbs Carafa 1 (400LB, dehusked) (2 oz more)

Hallertaur at 45 (.75 oz) and 30 (.25 oz) minutes.
Wyeast 3068 (no starter)
Sacc rest at 152 (will use the "Lawrence Decoction" method).
Ferment at 68 (ya know how Santa love banana in her beer)

At 70% efficiency, I get an OG of 1.057
SRM of 15
IBU's of 16

What do you guys think?
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
User avatar
Bill Lawrence
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:18 am

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by Bill Lawrence »

Well, first of all, just adjust your base grains for your system's efficiency, I actually do just a smidge better than Jamil's formulations assume so I back off just a little. I think your formulation will work just fine. The biggest difference is the omission of the Special B and that will for sure affect the flavor but I think I would omit it also (in fact I will when I do mine). I also think that adding alot of crystal (or caramunich which is really just German crystal anyway) is going to sweeten up the beer and also give it alot more body. The question is, how big do you want to make this stuff? I personally like to try and get mine just a little dryer since there is very little in the way of hops to offset the malt sweetness anyway (plus I think weizen should be refreshing and making the beer too sweet and big works against that). Since you are brewing for a very tough taskmaster, I guess if I were in your shoes, I would ask her how sweet she wants her beer.

When I make my version, I will probably use mostly Munich malt rather than pilsner and most likely will use some of the dark malted wheat rather than the lighter stuff (maybe 50% or so). I will likely not use very much if any crystal and I would also be tempted to add just a little Melonodin malt to boost the dark bread impression (along with the decoction of course). Since I would be using darker base grains, that should allow me to back off a little on the Carafa II which is an advantage since I don't want any roast slipping into the flavor profile at all. Finally, I will do everything I can to boost the flavors the yeast will add, no starter, no aeration and fermentation around 68F to get as much bananna as I can.

I am doing my wheat beers after the first of the year so they will be very fresh come March. This weekend I am going to the dark side and trying a Dogfish Head 60 clone, I have much less beer than I thought I had so now I am in a panic.
Remember, brewers make wort, only yeast make beer
chris mewhinney
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by chris mewhinney »

That's great feedback, Bill, I do appreciate it.

Given that I don't have some of the malts you suggest, and I'm not in the mood to drive across town for a few pounds of malt, I'll probably just cut the caramunich and carafa in half this time. Then, next time I make one (Jan/Feb), I'll use the dark wheat and melanoidin, as you suggest. Our processes sound very similar. What hops and yeast will you be using? If we could match up on those ingredients, and since our processes are very similar, it should be really interesting to compare results.

Running low on beer is a terrible thing, Bill. I have 8 kegs of varying amounts and qualities (unfortunately...) on tap right now, as well as a Schwartzbeir in primary. My problem is that I'm running out of kegs and space! I'll likely dump my last hefe (still to tart for my tastes...) and I may end up dumping my Nut Brown Ale. It's still a little young (6 weeks from DOB), but the OG (1.065) was way too high for the style and IBU's (24.5). Right now it tastes like poo...I'll give it another month. I may have a similar issue with my Oatmeal Stout (1.073 and 33), but's DOB was just 4 weeks ago.

Anyway, thanks again for the help. I'll be back in touch soon about natural carbonation in the keg for my wheats. I've never done this before but plan to from now on...cause it makes a lot of sense for this style.

Chris
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
User avatar
Bill Lawrence
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:18 am

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by Bill Lawrence »

I like WLP300, for whatever reason I seem to get more bananna with it than Wyeast although it is supposed to be exactly the same thing (and I know Richard does also).

Now for the disclaimer, you know me well enough already to know that I like to mess around with the ingredients and/or processes and get out there a bit (plus just generally being a little off anyhow). I really don't know for sure how the beer will come out using my ideas (although I am pretty confident that it will taste good assuming I execute properly). The thing about Jamil is that he is a multiple winner in the largest contests so his stuff is battle tested. Additionally, I have found that the formulations in his book that I have brewed have come out pretty well (also note that Orlando and Damon use his stuff shamelessly and are currently kicking everyone's butts). Finally, his stuff always passes my "smell test" if you know what I mean.

My problem is that I have a real hard time following direction, I just can't help screwing around just a bit with almost everything I try. The only time I will follow a recipe exactly is when I don't know what the hell I'm doing (for instance the IPA I'm doing this weekend will be straight out of a book, although not Jamil's and I will be converting an extract formulation). I will be willing to bet though that if I do it again, I will end up changing something either to suit my particular tastes or in response to a comment on a score sheet. German beers are really not that sensitive to formulation changes however, you would probably be shocked to see what I would/have done to some of the Belgian stuff I brew. :D
Remember, brewers make wort, only yeast make beer
donniestyle
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:58 pm
Location: Little Elm, TX 75068

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by donniestyle »

So, are you two brewing this for the Bluebonnet? Do you think the NTHBA can sweep the German Wheat and Rye beer category? Jimmy took first last year with a Roggen, which is basically a Dunkelweizen with rye instead of wheat. Do ya feel lucky? Well, do ya? :lol: Sorry, couldn't resist. So, I'm gonna have to brew one too. Fortunately they can be done quickly.
Is your beer intimate, hand crafted, and artisanally made?
chris mewhinney
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by chris mewhinney »

Bring it on!
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
chris mewhinney
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by chris mewhinney »

OK, so I brewed the Dunkelweizen today. I think I need some instruction with ProMash (or just simple math...), cause I'm having trouble hitting the OG's, lately. Today I reversed my recent trend of going too high by getting 1.052 (target was 1.056). The mash seemed to go fine, doughed in at 144 for 20, then recirculated to 152 and held for 20. Pulled a decoction (thin...for better boiling), brought slowly to boil for 25. Returned to main mash and held another 20 at 153. Sparged for 60. No issues at all...so why the low gravity? Must be the crush...I think I need a new grain mill that has settings so my crushes are consistent. I also am still getting used to my new plate chiller...cooling the wort too much! Today it was at 61 degrees in about 20 minutes. Too low, I think...warming it up to mid 60's now.

Oh well. In about a month, I'll know for sure if I should just give all my equipment away!

OK, one question: I use cheap pH strips and they never seem to register in the mash liquid (i.e. the color does not change much, if at all). I use 5.2 in both the mash and sparge so would expect the strips to be a little darker than they are. I also treat my mash water (RO) with salts in an attempt to match Munich water. Is it possible, under the circumstances I described above, that my mash pH is actually lower than 5.2? If so, what would you expect the results of the mash and the final product to be?

As always, I appreciate the wise counsel of my fellow brewers.

Chris
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
donniestyle
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:58 pm
Location: Little Elm, TX 75068

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by donniestyle »

Per the 5.2 stuff I would expect your mash pH to be 5.2. Crush has a lot to do with it. Too coarse, and you will leave unconverted starches in the grain. Too fine and you will get awesome extraction, but you will probably have a stuck mash. How adjustable is it? Mine is older (Valley Mill) and it has a lot of adjustment settings. I expect you have the barley crusher, and I think it is that way also. These two roller mills are not great, but they are good. A 3 roller mill is much better. I'm curious why you mashed in so high. Why not 122? At 144 you are already in the beta rest. And you were there for only a short time. See my post on limit dextrinase also. Proportedly the "new" optimal range for that is where you first rested, but you were not there long enough to get real good conversion. You rested in the lower 150s also. That would produce more dextrins too. You didn't mention mashing out. You probably did, but if not it will also help extraction of sugars. Wish I could have been there. Too much to do. Too little time. Santa is coming, and I've got to prepare.
Is your beer intimate, hand crafted, and artisanally made?
chris mewhinney
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by chris mewhinney »

Roller mill: Old, 2 roller variety...has no settings, but is adjustable. You just can't tell from crush to crush what the setting was. Also, the rollersw don't appear to be exactly parallel. I need Santa to fix this issue...

I always dough in at 140-144, per Palmer (I think...now you make me wonder). This is not a sacc rest...it's for gelatinization...and some conversion. He says to hold it for 20, then move to the sacc rest. Am I misunderstanding that? Is that why my beers suck?!

As for the sacc rest at 152, thats' what everybody says to do for hefe's. I've tried up to 158 and the results were not good.

Am I completely off base on all this?

Chris The Misguided
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
chris mewhinney
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by chris mewhinney »

Donnie-

Your question about doughing in at 144 got me wondering. So I've been trying to find my sources on line and I can't. The closest I can find is from Braukaiser's discussion of gelatinization...and I'm pretty sure I misread or misunderstood that article. I could also swear Palmer's recipe's almost all have a dough in at 140, but I gave that book to a friend of mine, so can't even verify that.

Form the article you mentioned (re limit dextrinase), it sounds like this rest at 144 may increase fermentability a bit and the 152 would be at the low end of the alpha window, thus producing some, but not a lot, of dextrins. What would you expect to be the resulting profile of this wort?

Sounds like i may need to go back to the basic mash routines I always used in the past.

Chris
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
chris mewhinney
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by chris mewhinney »

I found what was likely my main reference for the 140ish dough in: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... on_Mashing. It appears I had the temperature right, but not the reason for doing it. By the way, this is an excellent web site. I recommend it for all grainers who like to read the somewhat more technical stuff.

Here's an excerpt:

The Hochkurz mash has become the standard mashing schedule for beers brewed in Germany. Especially large breweries like it because it doesn’t require decoction and can be done in less than 2 hours which fits well with their desire to be able to mash a new batch every 2 hours. It uses 2 different sacharification rests; one for each group of amylase enzymes. A low temperature rest favors the beta amylase and sets the fermentbility of the wort. A high temperature rest favors the alpha amylase and completes the starch conversion.

The temperature steps necessary for this mash schedule can be achieved through infusions of boiling water or direct heat. If boiling water will be used the mash should be doughed in with a water to grist ratio of about 2.5 – 3 l/kg (1.25 – 1.5 qt/lb). Don’t be afraid of thinning out the mash through the hot water infusions. It will become easier to handle and enzymes and gelatinization also work better in a thinner mash.

If direct heat is used aim for a mash thickness of 3.5 – 4.5 l/kg (1.75 – 2.25 qt/lb). This is the mash thickness that is commonly used in Germany and it makes stirring the mash during the heating phases much easier. You should also aim for a dough-in temperature that is slightly lower than the first rest temperature since it is much easier ho heat the mash than to cool it in case the first rest temperature is not hit after dough-in.

The first rest (maltose rest) should be held at or around 63C (145F) and it’s length is used to control the fermentability of the wort. A good starting point for its duration is 30 min. Longer for more fermentable wort and shorter for less fermentable wort. If even higher fermentability is desired an intermediate rest at 65C (150F) can be added. Due to its large volume the mash temperature should not drop much during that rest but you may wrap the pot into blankets to stabilize the mash temp even more.

The dextrinization rest at 70-72C (158-172F) needs to be held until the mash is iodine negative but may be extended to 45-60 min. Many authors contribute head retention and mouthfeel benefits to extending this rest. Finally the mash may be raised to mash out temp and subsequently lautered.
Chris Mewhinney
There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".
User avatar
Bill Lawrence
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:18 am

Re: Ok, let's talk about Wheat Bier

Post by Bill Lawrence »

Well Don, I would have to say that no, I really don't feel that lucky but I am not the sharpest stick in the shed so I will probably try anyway. The great thing about wheat beer is that I think it tastes great and the turnaround time is very quick plus you get to drink it out of a very cool glass. It is interesting though, many think it is an easy style to brew, I disagree. There are many subtle things one can do when making a batch that end up in the taste. I plan on doing a Heffe and a Dunkelweizen both of which I will brew just after the first of the new year. I have a good formulation for the Heffe that has worked pretty well in the past but I will be winging it on the Dunkelweizen so I ain't holding my breath. The bottom line here though is I know that Richard is planning on doing one or more wheat beers also and he is the king so winning anything will be a struggle.
Remember, brewers make wort, only yeast make beer
Post Reply