LAGER FERMENTATION

[ssage21]

I'm brewing my first lager because my Keg cooler ran out of beer and I had room.
About how long does it need to sit in the primary & secondary?
One book says 5-7 days in primary and until fermentation stops on the secondary, but flipping through the book it says that for everything. I was a little curious about the foam on top and figured I'd wait until the foam died down. After 2 weeks the foam subsided and I racked it over to the secondary. Now I figured I'd let it sit in my secondary for a few days since the FG is 1.012 and should be done. Unfortunately I can’t run the temperature down from 50 deg because I have my 2nd lager in the cooler with it that is almost a week old.

Any lager fermentation techniques would be helpful, or just things to look out for.

[Brewboy]

If I understand correctly, you've transfered your first lager to a secondary and your's still holding it at 50 degrees because you've got a second lager in there with it that still in primary.

I'd just leave them both sit there at 50 degrees till the second lager finishes. Then slowly increase the temp about 5 degrees per day till they're both sitting at 68 degrees to let the yeast clear up the off flavors of a cold fermentation.

Rack both to their lagering containers and bring the temp down slowly to 38 degrees. Let them both lager for at least 4 weeks.

You need to be careful about pulling off the yeast too fast, especially with a lager. Personally, I wouldn't rack it off to a secondary untill after I'd done the Diacetyl rest (increased temp to 68 degrees for a couple of days at the end of fermentation)

[chris mewhinney]

Brewboy's right on the money. The only thing I'd add is that the diacetyl rest should be held for 24 to 48 hours. It may also be worth mentioning that a typical primary is about 14 days and a typical lagering period is 4-6 weeks. ("Typical" because it may vary with temperature, yeast, and wort composition.) With regard to when you should rack to the secondary, here's what John Palmer says:

"As discussed in the previous chapter, you should rack to a secondary when the krausen has started to fall back in. The bubbling in the airlock will have slowed dramatically to 1 or 4 bubbles per minute, and a hydrometer reading should indicate that the beer is 3/4 of the way to the terminal gravity."

You might want to take a look at his book. It's an easy read.

Hope this helps.

Chris

[Dave Warner]

I don't mean to derail the thread, but I am also working on my first lager.

I had a question about bottling. Should you bring the temperature of the beer up to room temperature gradually to preserve the yeast for bottle conditioning, or can you take it straight from your lagering temperature, rack it, and bottle?

Also, should it carbonate at room temp, or at primary fermentation temps?

I'm seriously considering trying to keg for the first time, but I didn't want to introduce two new factors on my first lager.

Good luck ssage21.

[Bill Lawrence]

Well, if you have been lagering for a couple of months at near freezing temperatures, I would reyeast to bottle condition. Once you get the beer bottled, let it sit at room temperature for a couple of weeks to develop the carbonation.

Having said that, just purchase the keg system, you know you want to (and I promise you that you will, sooner or later if you stay in the hobby). Not only will you stimulate the economy in these troubled times but corni kegs are great lagering tanks and it's very easy to carbonate the beer without worrying about yeast health. Oh yeah, buy several kegs while you are at it, I am pretty small-time but I have six 5 gallon kegs and 2 three gallon kegs (the little buggers are expensive but very useful). They are very easy to use and Kelly can show you all you need to know very quickly. I hate bottling and would much rather clean and sanitize one "big bottle" rather than a couple cases of little ones.

The only bottling I do anymore is when I am sending something to a competition or doing high gravity Belgians. I have found through extensive experience that putting real high gravity beer into my kegs gets me in big trouble with the boss at home.

[chris mewhinney]

And, of course, Bill's also right on the money. Why bottle when you can keg? Seriously...take the plunge!

However, I DID notice that Bill failed to answer your question (I think...), one which I REALLY want to know the answer to myself. You asked, and I will paraphrase..."Should you bring the temperature of the beer up to room temperature...for bottle conditioning, or can you take it straight from your lagering temperature, rack it, and bottle?" I'll restate the queswtion (to suit my purposes...): When bottling a lager, which is sitting at 35 degrees, go you let the carboy rest until it reaches 70ish prior to bottling, or do you bottle while it's still cold (35ish).

I'm really not sure if that was the original question, but that's my question. So what's the answer William? (Or anyone else out there...).

With Warmest Regards,
Chris

[Jimmy Orkin]

My 2 cents. Does not matter what temperature you bottle. I agree with Bill that that you will need a fresh yeast charge to insure that you have viable yeast to carbonate. If you add a little fresh yeast at 39 degrees or 70 degrees, it does not matter. In either case, you do need to keep the bottles at room temp for two weeks to let the fresh yeast do its work.

[ssage21]

I didn’t think about adding yeast before bottling to get the carbonation, even when I wanted to try making a lager because it doesn’t taste yeasty, compared to ales. With a kegging setup you can just force carbonate for about 3 or 4 days and it’s ready to go. The only reason I bottle at all is to give out samples to friends and family or contests. The few times I tried bottling from the keg it tasted a little different after a week. I think a counter-flow filler has just moved up on my wish list.

I’ve had a keg setup long before I started home brewing and have gradually gone into bottling. The initial sticker shock may turn you off but the time and money it will save will more than pay for it’s self after a year even if you decide to get a commercial keg every so often. I was lucky that my converted chest freezer has enough room for two better-brew bottle, so you need to think hard about the inside dimensions if you do a conversion kit.

[Bill Lawrence]

Sorry about that guys, maybe I need to read the thread a little more carefully before posting. Anyway, I agree with our fearless leader, I really don't think it matters that much how cold the beer is before it's bottled when doing natural carbonation. Those bottles are going to get to room temperature pretty quickly anyway.

I think however that one needs to be a little careful when doing bottle carbonation because it is a bit more tricky than force carbonation. If you are doing a regular gravity ale that is only a couple of weeks old, I would not bother reyeasting, just add your priming sugar and bottle, you will likely be fine. If however, you have kept the beer at low temperatures for a few weeks or maybe you are dealing with a high gravity brew, I would reyeast. I do Belgians in 750ml bottles with corks and cages so I can jack up the carbonation. The stuff I am making is usually in the 1.065-1.080 neighborhood and I alway reyeast before bottling. I currently use a neutral American ale yeast and I use the dry stuff just because it's cheap and easy.

Every once in awhile you get screwed though doing bottle conditioning. I did a Belgian Dubbel last year which for whatever reason didn't come out well. It seems like every other bottle is flat. This particular batch was very potent since I went a little crazy with the sugar when making it (you know, if a little is good more must be better, right?). I suppose I just didn't mix the priming sugar in real well before filling the bottles but it is very annoying to bottle two cases with corks and all just to have flat beer.

[Dave Warner]

Thanks Bill and Jimmy for the answer and to Chris for restating my question clearly.

I've only been brewing since January and am on my 7th beer, but I haven't had too much trouble with bottling. I'm always concerned about a mess up in sanitation though and cleaning all those bottles is a pain, but it sure does make it easier to share the love with friends.

I guess I'll be looking into a counter-pressure filler along with my kegging equipment.

Thanks again. I never thought of re-yeasting a high grav brew.

[chris mewhinney]

Seriously? I restated the question clearly? Well I'll be...

Chris (The Seldom Lucid Brewer)

[ssage21]

Just for a progress update:
The two brews that I brewed came out alright. They were a little cloudy but tasted good. I purchased a counter pressure filler to bottle them after the lager period. I opened the bock (the younger one) and it was more carbonated then I remember, so I may not have let it finish or lager it long enough. I built a new cooling cabinet with very accurate temperature control and I'm going for lager round two.

To summarize new process in a simplified manner:
1. Create brew as normal. Pitch yeast and hold temperature at 50 degress.
2. Wait about 14 days, or until SG is 3/4 of the way to your FG.
3. Increasing the temp setting 2.5 degrees every 12 hours. Until it reaches 67.5 degrees and hold for 24 hours. (3.5 days)
4. Rack over into your secondary and lower temp 5 degrees every 12 hours until it reaches 35 degree (3.5 days)
5. Rack over to my 5 gal keg and lager for 4 weeks at 35 deg.
6. Start the next lager.

[chris mewhinney]

In the spirit of having way too much time on my hands...I was rechecking my understanding of the diacytel rest yesterday and skimmed through Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" and noticed that he says "It is relatively common in modern fermentation cycles to raise the temperature of the post-kraeusen beer to 52 degrees and hold that temperature for two to seven days." This is after lowering the temp for 2-3 days to 38 to 40 degrees. Everything else I've read, including this discussion, says the rest should be in the high 60's. So I guess I have 2 questions: One, was Noonan wrong (I kinda doubt it...) or did I misunderstand? And two, if the diacytel is removed from solution at 52 degrees, and most primary fermentations are held at around 50 to 55 degrees, why is the rest necessary?

If anyone can 'splain this, I'd appreciate it.

[Brewboy]

Chris, I would not say that Noonan was wrong but that more current wisdom is available.

Starting fermentation low and slowly increasing through to completion is best for yeast health and producing a clean and complete fermentation.

Personally, I would avoid droping temp at al during primary fermentation even if past standard procedure was to do so.

[donniestyle]

Re-reading Noonan page 242 (New Brewing Lager Beer), I don't see a strict definition of when to do the diacetyl rest. I believe it depends on the strain of yeast. I follow the yeast manufacturers directions. Greg did write "Six to fourteen days (six to ten days is usual) after pitching, ...." and refers to the yeast flocculation. He then says "If a diacetyl rest is being employed, force the temperature of the post-kraeusen ferment to rise to 55 to 60 degrees F. After two days, lower the ambient temperature again, bringing the beer down to 38 to 40 degrees F at 3 to 5 degrees F per day." Then "When the extract drop slows to 0.5 degrees Plato over 24 hours, .... Rack the beer into a secondary fermenter/lagering vessel." He goes on to say "For beers from worts of 1.040 to 1.060, it should be roughly ... 1 to 2 degrees Plato of the expected final density (FG)."

I was going to write this up sooner, but I thought I better re-read Greg's recommendations. This is what I do.
1. Know when to perform the d-rest per the manufacturer. Most state something like when primary fermentation is complete. Some are more specific, like 3/4 of the expected drop in gravity.
2. Follow pitching rates, and I pitch a lot of yeast on a lager at the temperature I wish to ferment at. For example, I pitched 16,000,000 cells per ml in a 1.050 CAP. The yeast was grown at 48-50F, and the wort was 48-50F when pitched. I racked off the cold break, and oxygenated well.
3. Monitor the gravity, and when the beer gets within a few gravity points of the expeced FG, do the d-rest.
4. After a couple days, slowly drop the temperature to 38-40F.
5. After a few weeks, rack and lager.

Did you tried the "young" CAP at the party?