Club Vote to Revise NTHBA COC/BR Competition

[BrotherhoodBrew]

This is getting to be a little like HBD! I'm still a reader, but I find it difficult to post. Did you see that recent thread on sucrose?

Okay. There were several ideas floated already. Before we all start voting to change the Brewer Royale format, maybe we should try to understand what it was originally created for, which was to inspire new brewers to compete. That means we get them to compete in a much less challenging/costly format, and they are judged by their peers. In that way the beer is supposed to be judged more fairly, or at least with more input for the brewer. There is a much greater chance for them to get good feedback from someone close, than someone hours away trying to judge 3 or more flights of beer a day. We've all seen "those" score sheets -- pretty useless. One good thing that comes from that is we will get them to compete, and build their confidence. Then we get them to compete in competitions where their contribution helps the club.

I do not disagree that the current Brewer Royale competition is a good way to get new or young brewers to get feedback. After looking through the newsletter archives from 99 to current it does not appear to have fully achieved the goal of inspiring new brewers to compete. Looking at the names of the winners and most of the people that finished in the top 3 places, a lot of the same names appear there year after year. As a fairly new member to the club (in comparison to some) it was never clear to me that was the intent of the BR. I'd love if we could make this the focus of the BR and include more new members in all steps of the judging and entering of the beers. After all I think many of us would like to see the BR as a stepping stone for new club members and new brewers to learn what competitions are like and even possibly to have some judging training. So maybe we change the name of the Brewer Royale in its current form and tailor it more towards what was described above.

Okay with that said, here are some ideas that I have, other than adding the Lone Star points into the Brewer Royale. I like the idea to award (more than recognize) club members for their participation in the Lone Star Circuit.

1. Add more "Club" awards for those entering the Lone Star Circuit competitions. The Brewer Royale remains unchanged, and the members contributions in the Lone Star are "recognized" by the club. There may be more than one award. Here are some ideas.
a. Brewer with the most Lone Star points.
b. Team with the most Lone Star points.
c. Brewer with the highest second round score for any style.
d. Team with the highest second round score for any style.
e. Brewer that entered the most entries (winning or not).
f. Team that entered the most entries (winning or not).
Idea: Let's say the above awards are not so grand, and maybe there are first, second, and third place winners. The "Big Mohunker" prize could be something for everyone to enjoy. Consider a club sponsored "big batch" of the highest scored beer - something like 100 gallons brewed by several individuals simultaneously at a brew day. The club could supply the ingredients, and the participating members would do the rest. The winner provides the recipe and procedure. Half of the beer comes back to club functions.

1. I would agree to definitely add an award for the Lone Star points and that we need to recognize many of you club members who compete and garner points for our club. By entering they are helping to foster club pride in what we can achieve as a club. Also it is fun to have a friendly competition with many other local clubs. I'm going to respond to your idea's in the same format you posted them in.

a. Agree this should be one of the top awards and should actually come with some sort of prize. My suggestion is monetary prize to help pay back the member for the time and costs associated with entering the Lone Star circuit.
b. This is not a bad idea. One of my worries is that we wouldn't have too many teams from our club and this might be something we need to bring up to get more club competition.
c, d, e & f. This would be very hard to track. Some comps could easily provide this information but many in the LSC could not. I say leave this out for now.

An idea for a possible prize would be to see if we could get a local brewpub or brewery to allow the NTHBA winner, by points, of the LSC to brew on of their beers. The biggest problem there is finding a place that would do that. My best guess at a place this would even be possible would be Humperdink's but I am not sure how they would even feel about that. This is probably unlikely to happen but man that would be awesome.

2. Add 6 more styles to the COC, which are different than the ones chosen by AHA. This excludes Lone Star points. This creates more chances for new brewers, and fosters more participation. We realize the amount of work this will add. We would have to get more senior members to participate in the judging, meaning they would not be able to enter.

To be honest this is going to be too much work for the Comp. Cordinator and trying to find judges and places and times for 6 judgings is hard enough as it is. Adding 6 more would not be fair to the people that give their time to manage and judge as it is.

3. Double the judging with the same AHA COC styles. This would mean you could judge in one sitting and enter in the other. This idea would rely on the integrity of the judges, we could send two beers to the AHA (the club would have to pick up the entry fee on the second), there could be a BOS, or some other criteria to decide which entry goes (points are not a good idea - integrity!).

First thing is by AHA rules we are allowed to only send 1 beer to represent our club. The average number of COC entries of the last two years is around 5 or 6. (I don't have the ecact number) and by doubling the judging sessions the same problem applies as judging and running 12 COCs a year.

4. Limit the COC competitions to less experienced brewers. I don't know how we do that?

I actually like this idea a lot. It would be easy to know who is new to the club and it would require some "brewers code" to have everyone be honest about their brewing skills or how long they have been brewing. It could also be something a long the lines of if you have won (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) at any point in BR history then you are now excluded from the BR as a courtesy to other new brewers and new club memebers. That would give people a chance to compete in the BR and would be easy to track.

5. Get a core of judges lined up, who volunteer to judge and not enter the COC. They have to promise to be available on the scheduled day. Few excuses can be accepted, or they will be whipped with a wet noodle at some later date!

I'll be the first volunteer. I would exclude myself from entering COC to help with the judging. I had hope of entering every COC this year. I still have two entries for the January/February COC, which I forgot to take to HHQ; I've even had bottle labels prepared. I've got one for the <1.080, and 5 for the extract (although I'm only able to enter 2). Heck, I judge my own beer every time I pour it; unfortunately, I'm less impartial than others may be. One point - COC judging should not occur on the same dates as BJCP classes.

This is a good idea in theory but in practice but things come up or people just can't make a
certain judging date. People have not showed up or called the day of judging and say they are unable to make it. I think the way the COC judging works gets us by right now. What we need is to get more involvment from new members and brewers. BTW a note on the COC rules. Orlando mispoke and meant 3 not 2 is the new rule.

[Jimmy Orkin]

In my opinion, we need to define the problems with the current system. Once we know what is broken, we can focus on fixing the real problems.

To me, it sounds like these are some of the problems:

1. It is very hard to get judges for the COCs.
2. Very few members enter the COCs.

What else?

Now to take a higher level view. And perhaps we need to do this first. We need to decide what the goals of the COC. We may need to define or redefine what we want the COC to do for the club.

Is it an event for new brewers to learn about competition?
Is it a way to determine whom the best brewer is in the club?
Is it a way to introduce members to judging outside the higher pressure competitions?

We may decide that the purpose for the COC is fairly narrow. We might want to look at some other reward system to look beyond using COC as the measurement. I thinks this is where some Lone Star Circuit award(s) may make sense.

So I suggest first we define what we want the goal of the COC to be. After we know the goal of the COC we can decide if we need to expand competition rewards.

Your thoughts please?

[NanoBrew]

As a fairly new club member myself I am open to changes in how points are awarded in the BR competetion. However, let's not forget that the COC is a national competition. While the clubs primary focus is on the Lone Star Circuit, the COC is an opportunity to get national recognition for our brewers and our beer.

Because the club is only allowed to send one entry per COC, it should be the best entry our club can put forth. Therefore limiting entries to new brewers or relaxing on the Judging requirements does not necessarily identify the best entry for the national COC and it takes away opportunities for brewers who would like to compete nationally.

[donniestyle]

Guyz, enough with the quoting already. Let's not get too long int the tooth. It's a simple discussion. Monolithic posts with quotations are tiring to read, aren't they? The context is all here in one place. One more thing, knit picking is not warranted. It doesn't take that much effort to express an opinion, or disagree. Let's meet and discuss the options.

[BrotherhoodBrew]

The quoting was a method to make sure I address all your points that wanted to respond to. If we were in person I would respond to each point you brought up and give my opinion on it. So I didn't mean the quoting to be nit picking but just voicing my opinion on the ideas you put forth.

Basically I think we should leave the COC as is with no changes other than the title of the award and to create a new award for the brewer or team that gets the most points in the LSC.

[kingsbrew]

Ok. First of all, the committee needs to determine what problem are we trying to solve.
- Too hard to find judges for COC.
- Not enough people entering COC. (Why not?)
- Want to encourage more Lone Star participation. (Although since we had 27 different members garner points in LSC I am not sure that is an issue.)
- Get more Lone Star points? (Need best brewers entering all competitions, not just Bluebonnet and Dixie Cup. Are there brewers not entering? Why?)

From my parenting and teaching background I learned that you reward the behavior you want to encourage. Figure out what behavior you want to get and then out how to reward it. The reward may not be in the form of money. Come with ideas on what would encourage them and ask the members.

I will say that I have seen some clubs determine a "Member of the Year" award that is based on more than just brewing. Award points for hosting a brewday, hosting a party, judging COC, judging any competition, stewarding, taking BJCP exam, hosting BJCP exam prep, etc. Figure out everything you want people to do and award them for it. Each activity may have a different point value.

Ok, I've said it and I have probably really confused the issue. Sorry, it's just been going through my head for a long time. I'm not sure I have any answers because I am not sure I know what the problem is. It's the mathematician coming out in me. I can only solve a problem when I know exactly what the problem is.

[donniestyle]

Guys, it looks like we are going to fail to meet and come to a solution for the club. We promised to meet and solve this before the next club meeting. That leaves us less than one week. I'm booked through this weekend. I propose we leave the Brewer Royale designation and COC as is. We need more participation for judging, and I'll be glad to help, even if this means that I do not get to participate in Brewer Royale (COC). I also propose we come up with some way to recognize and possibly award the Lone Star Circuit contributions for club members. I've suggested a few ways. There are other possibilities. At least for the meeting, we can say we decided to leave COC/Brewer Royale as is. That buys us more time to decide what to do to recognize, and possibly award participation in the LSC.

[Guerra]

Donnie,

Yes we will fail to meet and come to a solution before the Feb Club meeting. But it is not too late.

Without resorting to quoting you previous post, why do you think it is too late? The COC and LSC will still take place, the points for each competition will still be awarded, whether we make a decision now, next month or the month after that. There is no need to make a decision before or at the Feb. club meeting. I am thinking this month’s meeting will allow us to receive additional input from the membership before the committee officially meets.

We have all had a good exchange of ideas so far on this thread. I think the “hot issues” have been brought to light. It is a good start. Thanks for keeping us fired up.

Orlando

[donniestyle]

I agree that it's not too late in terms of LSC. Our mission was to have have met and present our recommendations to the club on Feb 10 for a club vote. It really does not seem that can be done. Yes we have discussed it, but we are nowhere close to having 2 or three solid options to present for a vote. As far as getting everyone together, I don't have everyone's contact information. I was relying on the club to do that, as everyone's email and maybe phone too is known by the club. We should have gotten an email to everyone on the committee, but we did not. I still recommend we keep COC/BR as is, and find another way to reward LSC participation.

[Guerra]

Yes Donnie, I have failed to organize this committee before the Feb meeting. We will be unable to take a vote this month. I over booked myself this month, with other activities, and trying to keep a job.

We will have 3 opportunities to meet in the coming weeks: before the Club Meeting, Fred's Brew Day and at the Homebrew Social.

Anyone who would like their opinions heard by the committee we will meet at 6:30 p.m. before the Club Meeting, 11:00 a.m. at Fred David's House before Ken's presentation, and 12:00 p.m. at my home before the Homebrew Social.

An individual does not have to attend every meeting. But w/ multiple meetings being held it will give everyone at least one chance to present their position. I will email committee members and make some other arrangements to announce the dates & times to the membership.

Orlando

[donniestyle]

Sorry. Not trying to be a dik about it. When I say "we" I mean collectively, and definitely include myself. The easiest way to make contact would have been through email. I could have spent a few hours on the phone contacting some and getting them to help coordinate. Your job's more important than this.

[BigWally]

Lots of good discussion and some passion about this topic. While I agree that the Brewer Royal may have lost its focus I think there is some relevance to keeping it separate from the Lone Star Circuit events.

I caught a lot of heat when I was competition coordinator for not holding the COC events early enough to allow the winner to submit his/her beer to the national competition. We moved the dates and everyone was happy. I think we should maintain our support of the AHA by not confusing or diluting the relevance of the COC/Brewer Royale with points from the Lone Star. With that said, I do believe we need to recognize the brewer or brewers who garner the most points in the Lone Star events. This could become the Brewer Royal and the COC could be renamed to another award. I am afraid if we combine the two, we will diminish the importance of the COC.

I look forward to discussing this with you all next Tuesday.

P.S. No quotes were harmed in the posting of this message

[wrwoodman]

Other potential solutions are:
1. Do nothing, leave things as they are. Continue to award the Brewer Royal title to the individual who wins the most points in the COCs.

2. Combine the points earned in COC and Lone Star Circuit competition and award the individual who earns the most points in combined competitions the title Brewer Royal.

3.Award separate titles for the COC, and the Lone Star Competitions. The Lone Star Competition winner will be the “Brewer Royal” and the COC winner will win the title of "Best Club Brewer" or some other title we decide upon.

I like option 3. We can debate the title given to the winner but the idea is to keep them seperate.

One of the things I’ve always thought was pretty neat about NTHBA was the club only competition and the it’s cool that you can win a trophy for it. This is like having a small competition with your friends for your own enjoyment and no other reason. It also allows you to get feedback on your brew from someone you know and trust. You can always go ask the person judging for more information on why you got the score you did. I think that this should stay that way.

If the goal is to get members to enter more brews in the Lone Star Circuit then I think a new award should be created for this purpose. We can certainly debate the criteria for determining the winner of this new award but it should be separate from the COC.

On a side note, who picks the style for the COC competition? Is it the club officers who make that determination at the beginning of the year? I realize that a brewer should be able to brew any style but if you pick some styles that are more common I bet you’ll get more entries and more judges. I’m much more likely to make an IPA or stout than a lambic.

[Guerra]

The AHA chooses the COC styles: http://www.beertown.org/homebrewing/club_only/ http://www.beertown.org/homebrewing/clu ... edule.html

The COC is a National Competition, our local COC is like the prelims. If we wish continue to send our COC winners to the nationals we can not really change/add the selected styles.

Orlando

[wrwoodman]

The COC is a National Competition, our local COC is like the prelims. If we wish continue to send our COC winners to the nationals we can not really change/add the selected styles.

OK, I guess the next question to ask is do we ever send our beers on to the national comp? If so then that's fine, we'll just keep doing it that way. If not then that raises other questions. First being why not. Second, if we are not sending them to national comp then let's have the members or officers choose the styles they want to put in the COC.

Also, we could have member selected styles for those months that are not AHA selected styles. These would truly be club only and would count as points toward the trophy at the end of the year.

RW