Club Vote to Revise NTHBA COC/BR Competition

[Guerra]

At the January 12th NTHBA Club Meeting a vote, by show of hands, will be taken to determine if we will revise the point system we currently use to determine the NTHBA Club Only Competition/ Brewer Royal (COC/BR) winner.

At this time the NTHBA COC/BR winner is presented to the club member who has accrued the most points awarded from the NTHBA COCs in a given year. COC Style Categories are set by the AHA. The AHA COCs for 2009 are as follows:

Jan/Feb ‘09: Belgian & French Ales
March/April ’09: Beers with OG > 1.080
May ’09: Extract Beers
Aug ’09: Amber Hybrid
Sept/Oct ’09: European Amber Lagers
Nov/Dec ’09: Belgian Strong Ale

The proposed change is to include the points acquired by NTHBA members in the Lone Star Circuit Competitions in addition to those awarded by the NTHBA COCs competitions. The Lone Star Circuit competitions for 2009 are:

2009 Lone Star Circuit
Bluebonnet Brew-Off
Celtic Brew-Off
KGB Big Batch Brew Bash
Lunar Rendezbrew
Alamo City Cerverza Fest
Limbo Challenge
Cactus Challenge
Dixie Cup

If competitions are added to the Lone Star Circuit in the future, those competitions will also be included in determining the NTHBA COC/BR winner.

If the proposed change is not passed the method which we determine the 2009 NTHBA COC/BR will remain the same, using the points accumulated in the AHA COCs alone.

If the proposed changed is passed the NTHBA COC/BR winner will be determined using the sum of the points accumulated in the AHA COCs and the Lone Star Competitions.

Orlando

[Haney]

My two cents on the Brewer Royale:

The Brewer Royale has been based on the COC for a reason. It allows everyone to compete in a small event just among club members. The people who have won the Lone Star Circuit routinely entered 30 to 40 beers per event. This is not exaggeration; Richard Dobson, Mike Heniff and others have done this. We all don't brew enough nor can we afford to enter that many times. I think it's great to honor our members who do this, but why not make a separate Home Brewer of the Year award for them and keep this something everyone has a chance of winning.

[Guerra]

My two cents on the Brewer Royal:

I do not think anyone would disagree, the title of “NTHBA Brewer Royal”, should go to the Best NTHBA Brewer in a given year.

I do not believe the COC competitions, alone, do a very good job of recognizing the best brewer. It was my experience as the ’08 Comp Cord, that the competitions were not very well attended. In ’08 the average number of brewers submitting entries was 6, with a high of 10 and a low of 2. I do not know why so few members participate, but I think it has to do with the styles selected by the AHA for each competition. Take a look what is in store for ’09 & ’10. Without a change, the style categories set by AHA will continue to determine who will become the NTHBA Brewer Royal.

By allowing points earned from the Lone Star Circuit to be counted toward the NTHBA Brewer Royal we will allow members to brew the beer styles they enjoy and still be able to compete for the Brewer Royal.

I believe by allowing the Lone Star Circuit competitions points to count toward the NTHBA COC/BR will give us the means to recognize the best NTHBA brewer.

Orlando

[donniestyle]

One of my previous recommendations was to also leave the COC as is. In order to recognize club members for Lone Star competitions, I suggested 3 additional awards: 1) Individual with the most Lone Star points, 2) Team with the most Lone Star points, 3) Member/team with the most Lone Star entries. Hmmmm, maybe that's 4 additional awards.

[donniestyle]

Okay, we voted last night to postpone the decision making process and form a committee to has out more ideas. I volunteered, as did others. Orlando promised us we would be getting called together to brainstorm. I'm looking forward to this, and hope we get input from all the club members. One suggestion I have for this is to set up an online poll for club members to vote. We'll have to see if it is possible, and whether it can be done reliably. As for suggestions, I have made the following in the past.

1. Add 6 more styles and do COC plus the 6 additional club chosen styles for Brewer Royale. The additional styles should be different from the AHA chosen COC styles, and should reflect club members preferences. This may require a poll.

2. As I posted before, add additional awards for Club Lone Star Brewer, Team, etc. The AHA COC would remain unchanged.

As noted by the club officers, the issue with option 1 is that it is difficult to organize and get enough judges to participate in the bi-monthly COC. It would certainly be more difficult to add 6 more categories. Here's an opportunity for more club members to learn to judge. By all means, please come out to Orlando's and participate in the Judging 101 class in February. The great home brew god in the sky knows we need all the help we can get.

[Guerra]

All,

A motion was brought up at the meeting last night to take a vote on this proposed change to the Brewer Royal Competition. However after much discussion, it was apparent that a vote was premature.

A second motion was made to form a committee to hammer out the specific details of revising the Brewer Royal competition. The following individuals volunteered to participate on the committee:

Fred David
Walter Hodges
Einar Jonsson
Kelly Harris
Don Trotter
Randall Woodman
Damon Lewis
Mike Grover
Orlando Guerra

I will post the upcomming committee meeting place/time on this thread . If you wish to join this committee or to have your views heard by the committee please let me know, show up to a committee meeting, or post to the discussion thread.

Orlando

[donniestyle]

How is your schedule looking? Mine is pretty booked up through this weekend. Can we kick this thing off next week sometime? How does Monday 1/26 or Wednesday 1/28 sound? Any suggestions on the meeting location? I'm located at 121/Custer, so nothing is too close. I'll suggest BJs in Plano or Flying Saucer in Addison.

[Guerra]

We have allot to discuss. I am working on a adgenda for the meeting. I hope to have it completed before the weekend.

I am open to any of the locations you listed. We did have allot of success holding the "officers meeting" at someones home. What do you think about having the committee meeting at a memebers home?? Any volunteers??

Orlando

[donniestyle]

I can't do it at my place. I ain't got enough beer for you thirsty mugs!

[donniestyle]

Brewsters, time is ticking. The club officers meeting and membres meeting will be here before we know it. Let's get together this week and start hashing this out.

[Guerra]

Brewsters, time is ticking. The club officers meeting and membres meeting will be here before we know it. Let's get together this week and start hashing this out.

Sorry, but I have been swamped at work and been getting prepared for the Bluebonnet. I will contact you directly to discuss you having a more active role in this committee.

[donniestyle]

Okay, I don't mind at all. Let's get a special message in email sent to all club members, soliciting their input. Let's also get a message in email to all those who volunteered for this committee, regarding a meeting in the immediate future. I will need access to those email addresses or lists to do this. Facilitate me.

[BrotherhoodBrew]

I don't think we want to solict all the idea's of the club members to start. I think the point of the committee was to come up with an idea and present it to the membership for a vote. This does need to be nailed down by the March meeting at the latest. We could start the discussion via email and have everyone give out what they think we should do and try to filter them down from there. If someone could think of a faily quite meeting place we could have a meeting somewhere. Part of the problem is not all the people that voulunteered do not read this message board and maybe we need to email everyone and get the ball rolling.

Okay, I don't mind at all. Let's get a special message in email sent to all club members, soliciting their input. Let's also get a message in email to all those who volunteered for this committee, regarding a meeting in the immediate future. I will need access to those email addresses or lists to do this. Facilitate me.

[donniestyle]

This is getting to be a little like HBD! I'm still a reader, but I find it difficult to post. Did you see that recent thread on sucrose?

Okay. There were several ideas floated already. Before we all start voting to change the Brewer Royale format, maybe we should try to understand what it was originally created for, which was to inspire new brewers to compete. That means we get them to compete in a much less challenging/costly format, and they are judged by their peers. In that way the beer is supposed to be judged more fairly, or at least with more input for the brewer. There is a much greater chance for them to get good feedback from someone close, than someone hours away trying to judge 3 or more flights of beer a day. We've all seen "those" score sheets -- pretty useless. One good thing that comes from that is we will get them to compete, and build their confidence. Then we get them to compete in competitions where their contribution helps the club.

Okay with that said, here are some ideas that I have, other than adding the Lone Star points into the Brewer Royale. I like the idea to award (more than recognize) club members for their participation in the Lone Star Circuit.

1. Add more "Club" awards for those entering the Lone Star Circuit competitions. The Brewer Royale remains unchanged, and the members contributions in the Lone Star are "recognized" by the club. There may be more than one award. Here are some ideas.
a. Brewer with the most Lone Star points.
b. Team with the most Lone Star points.
c. Brewer with the highest second round score for any style.
d. Team with the highest second round score for any style.
e. Brewer that entered the most entries (winning or not).
f. Team that entered the most entries (winning or not).
Idea: Let's say the above awards are not so grand, and maybe there are first, second, and third place winners. The "Big Mohunker" prize could be something for everyone to enjoy. Consider a club sponsored "big batch" of the highest scored beer - something like 100 gallons brewed by several individuals simultaneously at a brew day. The club could supply the ingredients, and the participating members would do the rest. The winner provides the recipe and procedure. Half of the beer comes back to club functions.

2. Add 6 more styles to the COC, which are different than the ones chosen by AHA. This excludes Lone Star points. This creates more chances for new brewers, and fosters more participation. We realize the amount of work this will add. We would have to get more senior members to participate in the judging, meaning they would not be able to enter.

3. Double the judging with the same AHA COC styles. This would mean you could judge in one sitting and enter in the other. This idea would rely on the integrity of the judges, we could send two beers to the AHA (the club would have to pick up the entry fee on the second), there could be a BOS, or some other criteria to decide which entry goes (points are not a good idea - integrity!).

4. Limit the COC competitions to less experienced brewers. I don't know how we do that?

5. Get a core of judges lined up, who volunteer to judge and not enter the COC. They have to promise to be available on the scheduled day. Few excuses can be accepted, or they will be whipped with a wet noodle at some later date!

I'll be the first volunteer. I would exclude myself from entering COC to help with the judging. I had hope of entering every COC this year. I still have two entries for the January/February COC, which I forgot to take to HHQ; I've even had bottle labels prepared. I've got one for the <1.080, and 5 for the extract (although I'm only able to enter 2). Heck, I judge my own beer every time I pour it; unfortunately, I'm less impartial than others may be. One point - COC judging should not occur on the same dates as BJCP classes.

[Guerra]

Ok Donnie, I guess this is my fault since I have not hosted a Committee Meeting, leaving you this discussion board as your only format to get your ideas across. I would like to add my thoughts to your comments.

Okay. There were several ideas floated already. Before we all start voting to change the Brewer Royale format, maybe we should try to understand what it was originally created for, which was to inspire new brewers to compete. That means we get them to compete in a much less challenging/costly format, and they are judged by their peers.

If the Brewer Royal format was created to inspire new brewers to compete, then it has failed. I can provide the list of the '08 participants, I could say only a handful of the members who entered the competition were "new brewers" the great majority were experienced brewers looking for the competition, and trying to win title of Brewer Royal.

I have nothing against the COC. We have no plans to do away with the AHA COC contests. My point of contention has always been that the "Title" of "NTHBA Brewer Royal", should go to the BEST NTHBA BREWER in that given year. Do you really want a competition that is, in your words: "much less challenging" to determine who the Top NTHBA brewer is??

If we are to leave the COCs alone, I do not agree that we should call the Title "Brewer Royal". Maybe call it the “Best Club Brewer" or some other title we decide upon, but not "Brewer Royal", that title should be reserved for someone who has proven their brewing prowess in "very challenging" environment. You will be hard pressed to find more challenging competitions then those in the Lone Star Circuit.

There is a much greater chance for them to get good feedback from someone close, than someone hours away trying to judge 3 or more flights of beer a day. We've all seen "those" score sheets -- pretty useless. One good thing that comes from that is we will get them to compete, and build their confidence..

We are not doing away with the COC, it will remain so that all brewers, new and experienced, can still get there input, free of charge. New brewers can continue to enter the COCs and build their confidence, nobody is doing away with that.

1. Add more "Club" awards for those entering the Lone Star Circuit competitions. The Brewer Royale remains unchanged, and the members contributions in the Lone Star are "recognized" by the club. There may be more than one award. Here are some ideas.
a. Brewer with the most Lone Star points.
b. Team with the most Lone Star points.
c. Brewer with the highest second round score for any style.
d. Team with the highest second round score for any style.
e. Brewer that entered the most entries (winning or not).
f. Team that entered the most entries (winning or not).
Idea: Let's say the above awards are not so grand, and maybe there are first, second, and third place winners. The "Big Mohunker" prize could be something for everyone to enjoy. Consider a club sponsored "big batch" of the highest scored beer - something like 100 gallons brewed by several individuals simultaneously at a brew day. The club could supply the ingredients, and the participating members would do the rest. The winner provides the recipe and procedure. Half of the beer comes back to club functions.

Your ideas are all good. However C. D. E. and F. would be almost impossible to keep track of. I very much like the idea of a Big Batch, but where/who has a system we could use that is that large?

2. Add 6 more styles to the COC, which are different than the ones chosen by AHA. This excludes Lone Star points. This creates more chances for new brewers, and fosters more participation. We realize the amount of work this will add.

6-AHA COCs are enough, there is allot of work that goes into setting up the competition. There is no way that we can ask me or a future Comp Cord to take on 6 more competitions. It is a challenge putting 6 COC in a year.

We would have to get more senior members to participate in the judging, meaning they would not be able to enter

.
That would suggest that some members would not be able to compete for top brewer title. That does not sound like a good idea to me. Every one who whishes to compete, must compete, for the title to mean anything, especially the most experienced brewers.

3. Double the judging with the same AHA COC styles. This would mean you could judge in one sitting and enter in the other. This idea would rely on the integrity of the judges, we could send two beers to the AHA (the club would have to pick up the entry fee on the second), there could be a BOS, or some other criteria to decide which entry goes (points are not a good idea - integrity!).

It is a challenge to find 3-Judges and a Stewart for each COC. Some very big changes will need to be made in the way we recruit judges for this to have any chance of working.

4. Limit the COC competitions to less experienced brewers. I don't know how we do that?

COCs already do not have very many participants. On average we had 8 entries per COC. I can imagine a scenario when we would get minimal participation if we limit to new brewers only. Would we still call the winner of this modified version of the COC the Brewer Royal??

5. Get a core of judges lined up, who volunteer to judge and not enter the COC. They have to promise to be available on the scheduled day. Few excuses can be accepted, or they will be whipped with a wet noodle at some later date!

We have a lot of individuals who can judge. Actually every member of this club regardless of experience can judge. But we still only have the "core group" of 3-4 individuals who can be counted on to judge the COCs. Again attitudes will have to change if you want more judges.

I've got one for the <1.080, and 5 for the extract (although I'm only able to enter 2).

I misspoke at the meeting, the officers agreed to allow each member to enter up to 3 entries, however only 1 entry per sub-category (no double entries).

One point - COC judging should not occur on the same dates as BJCP classes.

I have scheduled COC judging when I and the judges who volunteer are available. I hope to get much better participation from our new BJCP judges.

Other potential solutions are:
1. Do nothing, leave things as they are. Continue to award the Brewer Royal title to the individual who wins the most points in the COCs.

2. Combine the points earned in COC and Lone Star Circuit competition and award the individual who earns the most points in combined competitions the title Brewer Royal.

3.Award separate titles for the COC, and the Lone Star Competitions. The Lone Star Competition winner will be the “Brewer Royal” and the COC winner will win the title of "Best Club Brewer" or some other title we decide upon.