Brew stand

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GreatDane2
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Brew stand

Post by GreatDane2 »

I'm looking at a 2-3 tiered stand on brew stands.com vs. Blichmann top tier vs. any other out there. I already have three keggles. I want to recirculate and Brewstands.com compact keggle system seems best at $690 including 3 burners and the stand. Add a pump and maybe plate chiller and it's less than $1,000. Any ideas that beat this for 10 gallon batches, that is sturdy with good burners and does not require designing yourself? Blichmann is a few hundred more $ and I don't see the value.

As a side note how does one recirculate from mash tun valve to top of mash tun? Just place a hose from valve to pump to top of tun into grain bed?

Also, what can I buy to automate temp in mash tun and is it easy to hook up I.e. minimal wiring and building? Thanks in advance...I like to brew not build. :)

Andrew
Guerra
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Re: Brew stand

Post by Guerra »

GreatDane2 wrote:As a side note how does one recirculate from mash tun valve to top of mash tun? Just place a hose from valve to pump to top of tun into grain bed?
Andrew
Andrew, I just use a length of high temp hose coiled on top of the grain bed.
Sparging.jpg
Mash Tun.jpg
IMHO if you are going 10gal batches you should consider a single tier brew stand. Hauling 10gal of water above your head can get real old.
Iron Beast.jpg
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Orlando Guerra
"You Can't Drink All Day If You Don't Start In The Morning"
GreatDane2
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Re: Brew stand

Post by GreatDane2 »

Thanks, Guerra. So you just connect a hose to the bottom mash tun valve, run wort through the pump, then back up through the mash tun top valve which has a coiled hose inside the keggle to the grain bed, if I'm reading this right?

I'm looking at single tier right now, but I'm worried about the hose getting clogged with grain bits as I pump from mash to boil...as opposed to using gravity which doesn't "pump" as hard and pull as much grain into the hose. Ever had this problem? Easy to fix each time?

I like this design as long as the sparge doesn't get stuck constantly. Maybe should come check out your system sometime :)

Andrew
Guerra
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Re: Brew stand

Post by Guerra »

The major downfall of “lautering” with a pump vs. gravity, is that using a pump does tend to "compact the grain bed". A compacted grain bed will cause a stuck mash/sparge. This is an issue I am very familiar with, but I have learned to minimize the effects.

See pic below (my system set up to mash/raise temp). When I mash on my system, I continuously run the pump for the entire length of the mash. I pump wort from the bottom mash tun valve, through the pump, through a flow restricting valve (mash tun top valve) which has a coiled hose laying on top of the grain bed.
Iron Beast Raising Temp.jpg
Running the pump for the entire mash, seems to allow me to better hold & raise the mash temps, it also seems to improves efficiency, and gives me very clear runnings. But running the pump this long can also really compact the grain bed.

Three things I do to minimize compacting the grain bed is:

1) Place a valve, between the pump and the coiled hose on top of the mash (note valve in above pic). I use the valve to slow the wort flowing from the bottom of the mash tun out through the pump. If I run the pump without any restriction, the unrestricted flow will compact the grain bed.

2) I always try to maintain an inch of water over the grainbed during the lauter to assure fluidity and free flow.

3) I always use rice hulls. Rice hulls provide bulk and help prevent the mash from settling and becoming stuck during the sparge.

Using the above techniques I have been able to greatly reduce the chances of getting a stuck sparge.
GreatDane2 wrote:Maybe should come check out your system sometime :)

Before you build or buy a system you should look at as many different brew stands as you can, and choose the one you feel will best suit your needs. Brewdays are perfect for this. At a brew day you can see a bunch of different systems. You are are also welcome to come my home anytime. I live in North Plano (Custer and Legacy), PM me and we can set something up.

Orlando
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Orlando Guerra
"You Can't Drink All Day If You Don't Start In The Morning"
jmarr
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Re: Brew stand

Post by jmarr »

I agree with Orlando on this. I built a system similar to his except I use a cooler as a Mash/Tun, I don't have the cool recycle valve and port he has on the top, and I don't have a float switch. I don't use the same process as he when it comes to recir during whole mash cycle. I think the cooler is more heat efficient so I don't loose much heat so I only recir when I want to raise the temp. So usually only have to recirc less than 10 min total in a 90 min Mash. Also he has a RIMS system (direct heat) where mine is a HERMES (heat exchange system). He may be more concerned about scorching, which I avoid. Admittedly he has more brewing awards than I have fingers. So he is a very good source of info on this. I get very good efficiency 77-83% without recirculating much so than may not be a big factor. I have never had a stuck mash in 50 batches. Hence I don't use rice hulls. As to controllers- I use Love Temp controller (TS-13010) to manage the temp for HLT and Mash/Tun. When I bought them they were $69. They are easy to use and easy to wire in, I did have some help too.

I had some pics but can't find them. My layout looks similar to his. Two keggles on each end,cooler Mash in middle, single level, two pumps, HE inside the HLT, and a control console attached at 45 deg to cart. Plus the differences noted above.
GreatDane2
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Re: Brew stand

Post by GreatDane2 »

Thank you both. I'm looking at a single tier stand I have found and probably will try to build it into a RIMS...in the meantime it's saison and mead brewing time for me while I get this stand up and running...hopefully they turn out nice after 5-6 months or so for spring. See you guys at the next brew day.

Andrew
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Brew stand

Post by Bill Lawrence »

Interesting tread, I just have a couple of things to add;

Orlando's system is state of the art, he is using two pumps which jacks up the cost plus, because of the way he sparges, he needs a float switch which increases the complexity of his system. Anytime you increase the number of moving parts, you increase the chance for something not to work quite right thereby increasing the time spent doing system maintenance (just ask Bill James about that). Anytime I see somebody brewing and doing plumbing at the same time, that is something I try to avoid (not that I've never done it myself mind you). On the other hand, many of the guys in the club are natural "tinkerers", part of the fun is screwing around with the equipment (Anthony as an example of that, it is just another facet of the hobby). Don't fall into the trap of thinking that your beer will be better just because you have the fancy equipment however. Jim Layton (who is a God when it comes to home brewing) uses plastic buckets and gravity and his beer has no peer.

One thing I do that makes things simpler and maybe even helps with beer flavor is batch sparging. If you batch sparge, you don't need a float switch and you can do things to control the ph thereby avoiding the dreaded over-sparging (which is a mistake that ends up in the glass by the way). Many new brewers love to chase the God of system efficiency, maybe it's an engineers mentality. I say, once you get reasonable numbers, what you really should be interested in is consistency. Making decent beer is a balancing act, you want to balance original gravity with bitterness and if you can not predict with some accuracy what your O.G. is going to be, there is no way to achieve that balance.

Finally, I always tell the newer folks that the biggest thing anyone can do to improve beer quality is to control fermentation temperature. If you have a choice between buying a fancy brewing system or purchasing a dedicated frig or freezer to ferment in, get the fridge every time (even if that means continuing extract brewing for awhile rather than going all grain). If you read any of the great Jamil Z's stuff, he harps on controlling fermentation and yeast handling (which of course is really the same topic). In my opinion, the difference between ok beer and great beer is frequently related to what the yeast (or bacteria) is doing to your wort, pay attention to that and your beer will get better quickly.
Remember, brewers make wort, only yeast make beer
Guerra
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Re: Brew stand

Post by Guerra »

Bill Lawrence wrote:Orlando's system is state of the art, he is using two pumps which jacks up the cost plus, because of the way he sparges, he needs a float switch which increases the complexity of his system.
Actually, my system is not "state of the art". It does not have any type of automation or "hard lines" (i.e. float switch, or temp controlled Mash Tun or HLT)).

A "float switch" is not a requirement for a single tier system. When sparging on my system, I simply try to keep a balance (by using the valves) between the sparge water pumping out from my HLT into the mash tun and the wort pumping out from the mash tun into the brew kettle. It is not hard...
K.I.S.S.
Bill Lawrence wrote:Finally, I always tell the newer folks that the biggest thing anyone can do to improve beer quality is to control fermentation temperature. If you have a choice between buying a fancy brewing system or purchasing a dedicated frig or freezer to ferment in, get the fridge every time (even if that means continuing extract brewing for awhile rather than going all grain).
I totally agree. IMHO before you go buy a bunch of AG equipment, you should first invest in: Temp controll (fridge/freezer w/ Temp controller to maintain proper ferment temps), a Stir Plate (to ensure proper yeast pitch rates), and a 7gal or greater brew kettle and a Chiller (so you can do full boils). After you have all that gear, then spend money on an AG system.

FYI, I won my first BB Stine w/ an Full Boil Extract brew, that I fermented in a temp controlled freezer.
Orlando Guerra
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Brew stand

Post by Bill Lawrence »

Well, it would seem I am in error concerning the float switch, my bad. I guess you then must watch the sparge water level in the mash tun so you can make manual adustments to the flow rates. I would find that to be a pain, that's why I went to batch sparging. There is a big discussion about batch sparging written by that guy in Oregon (Denny something or other) which is worth checking out, just Google and you'll find it.

Orlando brings up a good point about full wort boiling and a decent chiller. If you boil in a smaller pot, your hop utilization will be lousy plus I suspect there are other issues not encountered when doing a full wort boil (like carmelization due to the high concentration of sugars for instance). A good chiller however is manditory and can be somewhat expensive because of the cost of copper. The great Jamil Z. has a big discussion about an immersion chiller on his website worth looking at. His solution requires at least one pump (and possibly two if trying to do lagers in Texas) but I can tell you from experience that his solution will cool down 5 gallons of wort in a great big hurry. The goal is to cool the wort as fast as possible, it saves you time and also traps hop aroma. If you want to brew lagers, you need to get the wort to pitching temperature so as to get a clean fermentation and the only way I know to do that is to use a chiller and run ice water throught it. Even if you can't do the pump thing, a wort chiller that is gravity fed will really make your life easier and help make better beer. Oh well, we could go on forever about this stuff but my original point was again, pay attention to fermentation temperature first, you will be amazed at the improvement in your beer. I would be willing to state that if you can't control fermentation temperature, your chances of winning anything at these large contests is virtually nill unless you are just really lucky.

By the way, just reading this thread is going to get me to change my procedures just slightly. Instead of just using my pump to recirculate, I'm going to try leaving it on for the entire mash (and choke down the flow as ususal so as not to stick the whole thing). :D
Remember, brewers make wort, only yeast make beer
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BrotherhoodBrew
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Re: Brew stand

Post by BrotherhoodBrew »

I've brewed a bunch on mine and Orlando's system and there is 0 reason to control your mash with a float switch. It isn't any more effort to batch sparge vs using a pump. I have done both and won awards with both. (though a lot more with Orlando, I am almost certain that is because of dedication vs system). The keys to brewing good beer are easy and yet hard at the same time. Sanitation and then fermentation control are the first two. Third is yeast pitching rates and from there it becomes developing a process you can repeat so you can figure out where your faults are. The last step, (and I think this is hard for a lot of home brewers) is dumping 5-10g of beer down the driveway when you realize it sucks or is not what you wanted. From there make sure you follow Orlando's and Bill's advice. There is no reason to get a fancy system before you have the basics down. It will only help you make mistakes and not better beer.
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jmarr
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Re: Brew stand

Post by jmarr »

Front.JPG
I found the pics of my system. I agree all the advice give on this topic particularly to the emphasis on making and keeping your yeast happy thru good pitch rates, managing temp, and learning through experience what temp profile for each yeast delivers the best results. While designing, building a brew system and working to improve efficiency can be a distraction from the main goal, I learned a lot about brewing and established better processes while working on my system and improving my efficiency. So it can be a worthy journey, but as others have said it is not the destination.

My cart is lower than Orlando's (about 18") as I have had the non-pleasure of going to the ER for 2nd degree burns from hot wort while using a turkey fryer as my heat source.
Backside.JPG
controlpanel.JPG
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RobDrechsler
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Re: Brew stand

Post by RobDrechsler »

jmarr wrote:
Front.JPG
My cart is lower than Orlando's (about 18") as I have had the non-pleasure of going to the ER for 2nd degree burns from hot wort while using a turkey fryer as my heat source.
Backside.JPG
controlpanel.JPG
hmmm, maybe it would be a good idea to have a club co2 extinguisher at brew day for such emergencies.. I'll ask my fireman buddy what he would recommend for such situations.. besides not dumping it on yourself..
Beer contains just a small amount of vitamins - that's why it's necessary to drink lot of it
RobDrechsler
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Re: Brew stand

Post by RobDrechsler »

RobDrechsler wrote:
jmarr wrote:
Front.JPG
My cart is lower than Orlando's (about 18") as I have had the non-pleasure of going to the ER for 2nd degree burns from hot wort while using a turkey fryer as my heat source.
Backside.JPG
controlpanel.JPG
hmmm, maybe it would be a good idea to have a club co2 extinguisher at brew day for such emergencies.. I'll ask my fireman buddy what he would recommend for such situations.. besides not dumping it on yourself..

ok, the fireman says..
Yes CO2 would help but risk of over cooling and frostbite on adjacent tissues.
Best home treatment would be ice water immersion to quickly cool and soothe. Then lidocaine ointment for pain. Possibly followed by lots of beer :))
Beer contains just a small amount of vitamins - that's why it's necessary to drink lot of it
GreatDane2
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Re: Brew stand

Post by GreatDane2 »

Thanks for the tips. I have a single tier stand coming in a month. I have all the other equipment already...stir plate, 3 keggles, dedicated chest freezer for fermentation, etc. The stand is for fun, who knows maybe it will help with beer quality too. I guess my next question will be one pump or two...and eventually automated temp control...but there is plenty of time for all that in the next month or two.
jmarr
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Re: Brew stand

Post by jmarr »

With a single level structure you would need 2 pumps to fly sparge. You could do fly with a two level system and 1 pump.

I am sure there will be a healthy conversation about whether the extra cost to be able to do fly is worth it as many people have lots of success with batch, fly, and even "no" sparge. It will eventually depend on your personal preference and experience. While I like 2 pumps and fly sparge, with the extra complexity that means there are more things to keep track of and potentially go wrong. With my current system sparge is the step that requires the most attention from me.
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