continuing a conversation I started with Jimmy

[RobDrechsler]

basic gist is what category a beer belongs in as I am trying to find a category for limbo for a rye beer I brew ..

in looking at the categories listed and the bjcp style guidelines.. I'm a little stumped..

I was thinking 6d American Wheat or Rye beer.. which states

Ingredients: Clean American ale yeast, but also can be made as a lager. Large proportion of wheat malt (often 50% or more, but this isn’t a legal requirement as in Germany). American or noble hops. American Rye Beers can follow the same general guidelines, substituting rye for some or all of the wheat. Other base styles (e.g., IPA, stout) with a noticeable rye character should be entered in the Specialty Beer category (23).

what I have is a rye pale ale.. and Jimmy said that Specialty would be the category which doesn't exist in limbo.. but then I noticed in the 6d guidelines..

Commercial Examples: Bell’s Oberon, Harpoon UFO Hefeweizen, Three Floyds Gumballhead, Pyramid Hefe-Weizen, Widmer Hefeweizen, Sierra Nevada Unfiltered Wheat Beer, Anchor Summer Beer, Redhook Sunrye, Real Ale Full Moon Pale Rye

so how does the real ale fit into here?

Full Moon Pale Rye Ale

Tawny red and full of malt and hops, Full Moon's unique flavor truly satisfies. The smooth sweetness of malted rye and barley is complemented by generous helpings of Willamette and Cascade hops, resulting in an assertive American amber ale. (Contains rye.)

ABV: 5.70% IBU: 40.00 OG (plato): 14.00

[Bill Lawrence]

Well first of all you get what you get when talking to Jimmy .

As it turns out, I judged that category last year and there were several rye beers and as I recall none were particularly bitter nor had a bunch of hop flavor. If somebody indicated that it was a rye beer we were looking for the typical "rye twang" and if it wasn't there they got marked down a bit. If you start putting something in that category that is highly hopped you run the risk of getting screwed (been there, done that, got the T shirt). Unfortunately, most American wheat ales are not all that hoppy and the style guideline indicate that. What I tried to do was make an Gumball Head type beer (which is heavily late hopped) and yes, I also got the royal shaft even though Gumball Head is used as an example of the style. Now for the disclaimer; I am not BJCP certified nor do I know what the hell I'm doing half the time so take all this for what it's worth.

By the way, don't stop making the beer the way you are. In my ever so humble opinion, this category is boring unless you do something to make it more interesting the obvious example being hopping it up. I'll be screwing around again this year with wheat, I'll probably do a 1.050 O.G. wheat ale as well as a more substantial wheat IPA and yeah, I'm gonna hop the hell out of both beers. Will I win anything? Probably not but I hope to do some quality quaffing.

[Jimmy Orkin]

I think an option here is to add category 23 Specialty Beer with the caveat that the beer cannot exceed 5% ABV to the limbo. It does overlap with the lawn mower category a bit. We can discuss this at the first Limbo Planning meeting.

We also need to look at splitting the "German Wheat, Belgian & Sour Ale" category this year. We had 36 entries in that category last year.

[Bill Lawrence]

I'm gonna segway this into a mini rant about competitions; bring up the soapbox.

In my opinion, homebrewing should at least partly be about innovation and coming up with new styles (many of the commercial guys use us for an unpaid R&D department which is good). If we are holding a homebrew contest there should always be a category for the wierd stuff. That said, I think Jimmy's idea is sound and that will allow the Limbo to contribute to the innovation at least with session beers. Juding a category like that is a real bitch though because at the end of the day it becomes a question of what do the judges like since the beers competing can all be very different. One of the downsides of having the rigid categories is that it tends to stifle creativity; the best example of this is the California Common category (can you say Anchor Steam clone contest?). Besides all that, it gives our buddy Barret a place to play and fly his freak flag which is if nothing else is entertaining.

[RobDrechsler]

I don't think a new category needs to be opened, I'm just curious how the pale moon rye fits in there..

[TheMacheteMasher]

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Freak alert Understanding beer styles and our homebrewed creations has some merit. It is suggested by the commercial example list that Rye does not do well in this category. If we are looking at the order (Bell’s Oberon 1st, Harpoon UFO 2nd, Gumballhead 3rd etc). I have taken this to mean the rye addition should accent the style be smooth and well done. The BJCP list has placed American rye in a challenging position (Redhook Sunrye 8th, Real Ale Full Moon Pale Rye 9th).

I say put the beer in any category you want. This will allow you to see what the judges think of your Rye beer. It may not score well but you will have proper suggestive feedback.

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[Bill Lawrence]

Oh don't get me wrong, I think that you should consider competing if you want to make better beer. Think of the judges as a focus group, the score sheets are good unbiased feedback. However, not all judges are created equal. Some comments I take to heart and will change recipes based on the comments, some really aren't all that good and occasionally you can tell that the judge just doesn't get it.

I usually brew specifically to enter both the Bluebonnet and the Limbo but I think this year I'm going to do things just a little differently. I've decided that I'm gonna concentrate on making stuff I really want to drink and not worry so much about generating entries per se. Additionally I'm going to try and make a couple of styles that I have never messed with before. I want to come up with a wheat IPA (essentially a Dogfish Head 60 with a wheat base), a Berliner Weiss (including the syrups), a Double IPA (Philney the Elder clone) plus I want to try and play with American ales (pale, amber and brown) since I have a bunch of fun, low cohumolone hops to mess with. I have already done a Dogfish Head 60 which I double dry hopped and I'm trying an American brown this weekend that I plan on bursting. Yeah, I may make some serious swill but if nothing else it should be fun.

[TheMacheteMasher]

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Bill I encourage you to go off track and make what you want. I'd like to see what you come up with. I've been trying to craft a Berliner for my own little home brewery. I've brewed several versions that have been poor scoring in competition. I chuckle at the feedback. I brew what I like and that is often called "Barrett Beer". I'd like to keep a sessionable house sour on tap. I think the version we tapped at Bluebonnet helped to bring in the Peoples Choice award! The style is a hard to nail because our impression is being formed by modern commercial releases each are vastly different. Yet with the likes of New Belgium and Full Sail the style is getting some attention. I like 1809 by Dr Fritz Briem. It's light and refreshing with a higher ABV. 1809 is also not sharply sour and does not need syrup. Along the same line but with Smoked Malt the Abraxxxas by Freigeist is great!!

This year I am pushing back from the sours and Belgians. I plan to brew clean session beers. I should also throw out all my bottles. The space has been over run with sour experimental beers. I brewed a SMASH IPA and an Ordinary Bitter. I put a cream ale made with corn meal in BB2014 score 33.5 (judged by Bill) and a Scottish 60 in the first COC. Brewing session beers takes less effort than working sours.

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[Bill Lawrence]

Well, I have a Barrett scoresheet with a 20 on the bottom and the phrase "butter bomb" written on it. I know diacetyl when I taste it and the keg is ok; I suspect the bottle got infected but who the hell knows. I may bring a growler of the stuff to the brew day and see what others think as I have been full of the stuff that makes the grass grow green many times before.

[Jimmy Orkin]

Bill implied poo.

[TheMacheteMasher]

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I take full responsibility for my judging comments. I suspect bottle infection as well. Bring the beer I'd love to try it again.
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[Bill Lawrence]

Of course you understand Barrett that I do not take any of this stuff seriously. Also of course, far be it from me to mess with a guy who brews with a sword.

[TheMacheteMasher]

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Well said sir! I like the spirit of competition all in fun but still serious bragging rights. I split my entries when entering comps. As a way to keep it fun half are experimental for feedback the others I feel have a chance. This has yielded some fun comments. All judges should be held accountable to their comments. I've emailed judges and chatted with those in our region. It's great to open up the conversation (like this on Rye). The interpretation of style and the use of materials is worth exploring.

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[RobDrechsler]

just a side note, lakewood growler has St arnold's berliner weisse on tap..

[TheMacheteMasher]

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I tried that beer at the bottle shop. It's okay. I think full sail's is better. That being said I like to keep my own taps full
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