Secondary?

[BigWally]

I just read an string on HomeBrewTalk about skipping the secondary. I've always moved my beers to a secondary after the primary fermantation abated, but the posts about skipping the secondary have me intrigued. Has anyone else left their beer in the primary for the duration of the fermentation and then only moved it to bottle or keg? The discussion had folks leaving beer in the primary for 2+ weeks.

Thoughts? Experience?

[Dave Warner]

I've done a Wheat beer and a Scottish that way. Worked out fine. In a big beer, lager, or one that's going to sit around a month or more, the fear of autolysis > risk of contamination by transferring to secondary in my case. (one I can control, the other I can't)

I've never done a side by side to see if there is, in fact, a better clearing effect of a secondary like some claim.

[Thors Brother]

I just read an string on HomeBrewTalk about skipping the secondary.

Thoughts? Experience?

Long Answer: I think you will find a wide range of opinions on this. I can't say there is a big difference overall for the beer (from my experience). However, my opinion is the beer is crisper and cleaner tasting if I use a secondary. Then again, to say I did any significant testing of this would be a stretch. The beer seams to clear up better and faster in a secondary and this could be what is leading me to believe the beer is crisper and cleaner. (not sure) Regardless, the beer is significantly clearer off of the kegs when I use a secondary (my un-scientific opinion). Whether it tastes different or not could just be a perception rather than a reality.

Short Answer: I believe in using secondaries.

[Jimmy Orkin]

I never use a secondary. I have left the beer on the primary yeast cake for up to a month before kegging. I did have reasonable temperature control the whole time. Normally I leave beer in the primary for two weeks for an ale. I perform a diacetyl rest for the last couple of days at the end.

For lagers I track the FG and do a diacetyl rest at the end, all in the primary. I do rack into a keg to lager. No carbonation during lager.

Transferring to the secondary is just one more chance for contamination.

[BigWally]

Jimmy's response is similar to what I was reading on the other thread. How much cold break do you leave behind in the brew kettle. I have heard that removing too much can give your beer an onion flavor, whereas leaving your beer on the trub can affect head retention, though I have never tried this either. Sounds like a good experiment.

[BigWally]

My last post was not an attempt to change the subject, but as another question about using the primary only option.

[Guerra]

I never use a secondary. I have left the beer on the primary yeast cake for up to a month before kegging. I did have reasonable temperature control the whole time. Normally I leave beer in the primary for two weeks for an ale. I perform a diacetyl rest for the last couple of days at the end.

For lagers I track the FG and do a diacetyl rest at the end, all in the primary. I do rack into a keg to lager. No carbonation during lager.

Transferring to the secondary is just one more chance for contamination.

I agree w/ Jimmy. I also think transfering to "secondary fermentor" also increases the chances of potentially oxiginating your beer.

For all the success that Damon and I have had in compettitions (2009 & 2010), NONE of those beers went into a secondary, including the lagers. I have left beers on the yeast cake for 4-6 weeks w/ no precieved ill effects.

I do however transfer my beer between kegs, before force carbonation. I will first keg a beer, Ale or Lager, in a keg w/ a shorten dip tube. I then let it lager in my serving fridge for several weeks. I then transfer the beer (aka "jumper") from the keg to a new keg (w/ a long dip tube). This will leave any residual yeast behind. So you could argue that I do secondary....

Jimmy's response is similar to what I was reading on the other thread. How much cold break do you leave behind in the brew kettle.

I believe that is the key, I use a whirlpool Imersion Chiller. Which allows me to quickly chill my wort, and the act of whirlpooling allows me leave alot of cold break in the kettle (w/ a 30 min wait after whirlpool to let everything settle before I transfer to the fermentor). I have also raised my pick-up tube in my kettle to leave more of that nasty stuff behind.

Orlando

[Jimmy Orkin]

I leave as much break in the kettle as I can. I have been racking from the kettle to the carboy since I did not have a spigot so I can leave almost all the break behind.

[Thors Brother]

Jimmy's response is similar to what I was reading on the other thread. How much cold break do you leave behind in the brew kettle. I have heard that removing too much can give your beer an onion flavor, whereas leaving your beer on the trub can affect head retention, though I have never tried this either. Sounds like a good experiment.

I do not remotely believe removing all cold break will create an onion flavor.

I also don't believe trub on fermenting beer has any impact on head retention.

Orlando and Damon clearly have demonstrated success, however I would agree with Orlando... you are effectively performing a secondary fermentation using two kegs.

My opinion is any O2 brought into the secondary during transfer would be consumed and processed by the remaining yeast in the beer. I have no proof of this, just a theory. Regardless, I have never had an oxidized beer (I think) and I also use a secondary with every brew.

Any experiments in this area would be very cool to hear about.

[Thors Brother]

One final comment... Orlando and Damon are beer Gods... anything they say in disagreement with me should be considered as law, disregardling my thoughts.

[BigWally]

The bit on onion was something that I read a number of years ago. Never tested it. I know that Jim Layton used to let his wort settle in the carboy, then rack to the another carboy before pitching. That seemed a bit excessive to me, but then Jim won a few awards.

There was that one year at the Bluebonnet first round judging where all of the beers smelled like onion. Couldn't have had anything to do with the pile of onions for the sandwiches.

[BigWally]

I got to thinking about the onion thing after my last post and did a quick search. Here's something to chew on...

From brewingtechniques.com: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/librar ... rchet.html
...
It is widely believed that removing all cold trub not only has no benefit, but actually might slow fermentation and harm the finished beer, reportedly giving it an onion-like flavor.
...

[BrotherhoodBrew]

I definitely would not call me a brew god or a person that has a lot of technical knowledge. Maybe some luck . I know I generally will have some but not much trub on my beer. I never worry about it too much. I make sure I don't think it is excessive. If we look at it like how most of the pro's do it. They chill in a Plate chiller that will of course put most of the cold break into a fermenter with the beer. I would say most of the hot break stays in the whirlpool. They then transfer to a bright/conditioning tank and age there. Normally the beer is chilled before it is moved over and because of the pressure difference of the vessels and amounts they use I could see trub flavors being more of a problem on that scale. I think on a homebrew level it would be minor if not an issue as long as there isn't any excess one way or the other.

[Thors Brother]

I got to thinking about the onion thing after my last post and did a quick search. Here's something to chew on...

From brewingtechniques.com: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/librar ... rchet.html
...
It is widely believed that removing all cold trub not only has no benefit, but actually might slow fermentation and harm the finished beer, reportedly giving it an onion-like flavor.
...

I would never had ever believed this. I will be paying more attention to this. Thanks for pointing this out Big Wally. Damn, I need to brew again! Also, Damon probably makes the most sense in what he said.